New DRK is awful. Here’s why and what could be done about it.

[gman1311]

22 people on a over 2 million playerbase.



I remember when 4.2 or earlier patch came out reworking warrior, people were bragging about how bad he will be and that he will have lower dps than he already had and that SE destroyed warrior completely. It has turned out to be a really big success, everyone complaining were wrong wrong wrong.

This is true!

[shao32]

22 people on a over 2 million playerbase.

you are pretty new around here if you expect the less that a million active players not 2 visit the forum, and of those a small % are tanks and of tanks only a really small % are dedicated DRK mains, 22 likes it's really a lot if we see the english forum standars so yeah, apart of reddit and balance discord, i knew a lot of DRK that are pretty upset whit this for no say all of them that don't visit the forum.

to give you a better example the JP that use the like system of the forum much more often that us work around 20 likes the most standar popular post, so yeah its a big deal, and you are practically alone with 3-4 guys here.

[ReiMakoto]

I remember when 4.2 or earlier patch came out reworking warrior, people were bragging about how bad he will be and that he will have lower dps than he already had and that SE destroyed warrior completely. It has turned out to be a really big success, everyone complaining were wrong wrong wrong.

These situations arn't comparible, the outcry there was about confirmed numbers and wether or not it was a buff or a nerf, what we're talking about here is playstyle changes, no one looked at those warrior patch notes and went, "We'll wait and see if it plays like X", the primary concern was with its numbers. What we are talking about here is how DRK plays, not its numbers and not comparing those numbers to other numbers in an expansion cycle, and how in our opinion its going to play bad, not about its numbers. Then again even with the Warrior patch there were a few people who looked at that and said "Warrior is oversimplified now and won't be fun to play" (Me), so I moved from being a WAR main to DRK because I was right. Now I'm looking at DRK and thinking the exact same thing.

[Satarn]

The only thing I disagree with is the decreased potencies on the edge/flood skills but that's just because they cost MP and shouldn't be THAT outdone by the suggested new Carve and Spit. MP shouldn't have a perfect cost-to-potency ratio across the board but closing that gap would be beneficial for lower skilled players.

The idea is for Carve and Split to have same dmg ratio to Edge of Shadow as DACnS had to DA, so you still need to save the MP to use it whenever it's up.

Brah, do you see Fray? What kind of identity you want more

Nice animations =/= identity.

There are soooo many flaws in OP design, and he is not taking into account the different potency scaling into the damage that is coming in 5.0.
Its a complete mess, mutant created on current DRK with few skills replaced here and there that has been nerfed to the ground turning them into second dark passenger, i could see people complaining about it on this forum if SE decided to do exactly that, why are their key skills so weak and useless

If you actually read my post, you'd know I mentioned numbers possibly needing tweaking and how that could be easily adjusted through Darkside initially and later through potency changes when there's more time for it. I actually went the safe route by using SB potencies due to SB Darkside number(would also need some boost for lack of slashing debuff though, most likely).

If anything it is you who fails to take into account how different flow of MP and mechanics would change the frequency of use and interactions between the skills. Perhaps before saying silly things, you should ask yourself this - what's a bigger number: 500 or 140x4 ?

I remember when 4.2 or earlier patch came out reworking warrior, people were bragging about how bad he will be and that he will have lower dps than he already had and that SE destroyed warrior completely. It has turned out to be a really big success, everyone complaining were wrong wrong wrong.

The WAR "nerf" outcry was caused by Bokchoy screwing up math and he was called out on it and corrected pretty quickly. Ironically Bokchoy's numbers were wrong for the same reason you see my idea of DRK as weaker than SE's rework - looking at numbers without considering the complete change of rotation.

Most people were just concerned about 4.2 WAR's gameplay being too braindead compared to 4.1 depth... including me actually. Come Sigmascape and the dumbing down concerns proved to be 100% correct and the people who rised them dislike WAR to this day.

Guess that means I've got a track record of being right on those things, huh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nedkel]

The WAR "nerf" outcry was caused by Bokchoy screwing up math and he was called out on it and corrected pretty quickly. Ironically Bokchoy's numbers were wrong for the same reason you see my idea of DRK as weaker than SE's rework - looking at numbers without considering the complete change of rotation.

Most people were just concerned about 4.2 WAR's gameplay being too braindead compared to 4.1 depth... including me actually. Come Sigmascape and the dumbing down concerns proved to be 100% correct and the people who rised them dislike WAR to this day.

Guess that means I've got a track record of being right on those things, huh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thats why i take all the hypothesis with two grains of salt. If you break down each class with the same method that one guy did on this forum then all jobs will appear to be flat and boring.
You cant tell how the class will feel if you never played it yourself. One obvious contradiction is that, nobody is complaining about PLD or WAR, which are not going to be anymore complex than DRK, hmmmmm.

If you actually read my post, you'd know I mentioned numbers possibly needing tweaking and how that could be easily adjusted through Darkside initially and later through potency changes when there's more time for it. I actually went the safe route by using SB potencies due to SB Darkside number(would also need some boost for lack of slashing debuff though, most likely).

If anything it is you who fails to take into account how different flow of MP and mechanics would change the frequency of use and interactions between the skills. Perhaps before saying silly things, you should ask yourself this - what's a bigger number: 500 or 140x4 ?

500, because there is no place for downtime or mistake, taking into account average 60-80% player activity on tanks which translates into time between executing each action. What you are completely ignoring is the fact that 5.0 DRK has a much better design and more skills which could be used for bigger effects. The only thing that will limit new DRK is the amount of MP he will be able to regenerate, and thanks to that he will be much easier to balance than current DRK, who is a clunky double weaver, which you cant improve unless you remove dark arts. But removing dark arts and giving him 2 useless oGCD will not make him anymore interesting to play, unless you make these two hit hard. Did you took into consideration other tank jobs, that are going to have awesome moves with around 1k potency damage? How drk would look in comparison to the other two?

snip

Everyone i know is excited to play new DRK, its just forum folks that thinks old DRK is better.

[Gula]

Nice animations =/= identity.

So would you find text based games more enjoyable? Cause I think it's a major part of it. Spectacle is in the design process, Yoshi has said this about content.

[Satarn]

Thats why i take all the hypothesis with two grains of salt. If you break down each class with the same method that one guy did on this forum then all jobs will appear to be flat and boring.
You cant tell how the class will feel if you never played it yourself. One obvious contradiction is that, nobody is complaining about PLD or WAR, which are not going to be anymore complex than DRK, hmmmmm.

You know how I brought up Bokchoy's faulty analysis being quickly debunked? That was by another guy who did a correct analysis based on the information that was available before the patch actually happened. No play was needed.

500, because there is no place for downtime or mistake, taking into account average 60-80% player activity on tanks which translates into time between executing each action.

Please go back to math class. What is that gibberish even supposed to mean? No seriously, are you trying to imply that tanks need to have everything on super long cds, because weaving is too hard for you or what? If that's the case, then you should probably not play the job since it's appeal has always been lots of weaving. Maybe switch to BLM: nearly no weaving, huge potencies and lots of single button spam - perfect.

The only thing that will limit new DRK is the amount of MP he will be able to regenerate

And it's cooldowns. And rigid 10 second burst windows which are the only time you'll actually use that MP because of how very limited it is.

and thanks to that he will be much easier to balance than current DRK, who is a clunky double weaver, which you cant improve unless you remove dark arts. But removing dark arts and giving him 2 useless oGCD will not make him anymore interesting to play, unless you make these two hit hard.

You do realize that 5.0 DRK is going to double weave every single gcd in it's opener burst and then again every time all those x30 second cds line up? SB DRK actually had much more freedom to decide where to weave DA. 5.0 version however, is so rigid that there's no room to adjust without losing lots of dps.

How is a skill that translates MP to damage and a skill that gives you a 20% dmg + SkS buff for 30 seconds useless? Do you really not see anything beyond "big number - me like!"?

Oh and good job on using that quote feature btw.

So would you find text based games more enjoyable? Cause I think it's a major part of it. Spectacle is in the design process, Yoshi has said this about content.

Games are an interactive medium - of course visuals play a role, there's no denying that, but the biggest concern should always be game-play. Otherwise you might as well just watch an animation.

[Chrono_Rising]

I remember when 4.2 or earlier patch came out reworking warrior, people were bragging about how bad he will be and that he will have lower dps than he already had and that SE destroyed warrior completely. It has turned out to be a really big success, everyone complaining were wrong wrong wrong.

This is an example of selective memory. We also had a number of reasonable people who said it would end up being a buff. There is bad analysis and good analysis. When I argued against the analysis done saying that Inner release would be a dps loss, I first deconstructed the argument of why it would be a loss, found logical flaws, and concluded such analysis was incorrect and its conclusions could not be trusted. The tank mentors in the balance had worked out the rotation warriors would use before final patch notes even dropped. There were bad sources of information, but there were also many good sources of information.

Granted we are at the moment in a place where we are talking about gameplay, and it is a harder argument to make, but I'm positive people can see for themselves what is going on with dark knight. If you played the job for speed; it has been slowed down in 5.0. If you played this job because its had a flexible rotation, we don't have that as much, many of our buff windows have been tightened to 10 seconds, meaning more precise button presses, as well as a tightening of our resources meaning we have less room to be flexible for things like saving up mana and blood for party buff windows.

I wont comment much on the rework as drk being fun is pretty subjective.

But i did want to be a little more fair too our Frey pet friend. There have been countless requests to bring back a specific dot that had no interaction woth the kit just because it looked cool. Frey is a powerful dot that looks way cooler than scourge ever did. No need to crap on a 'stupid dot' when 'bring back scourge!' has been a consistent rally cry for 2 years. Lets not hold our buddy Frey to a double standard. Hes beats the snot outta scourge and scourge has been missed.

While valid that Living Shadow is a dot and scourage is also a dot, they are two different kind of dots.

Scourage was up frequently, meaning you needed to actually monitor it. While it was usually a gain, there were strategic reasons to no put it up, or to delay a combo but reapplying early. Living Shadow has no such dual use, as far as anyone can tell it is a just use it ability.

[Shurrikhan]

I wont comment much on the rework as drk being fun is pretty subjective.

But i did want to be a little more fair too our Frey pet friend. There have been countless requests to bring back a specific dot that had no interaction woth the kit just because it looked cool. Frey is a powerful dot that looks way cooler than scourge ever did. No need to crap on a 'stupid dot' when 'bring back scourge!' has been a consistent rally cry for 2 years. Lets not hold our buddy Frey to a double standard. Hes beats the snot outta scourge and scourge has been missed.

"No interaction with the kit"? What? It wasn't all that much due to the constraints of Grit but even then Scourge was the pacemaker of HW DRK play and even the most minor of adjustments could put it in a position to reward tactical delays or early reapplications of the skill. And that's not even touching on minor, individually positive adjustments to Blood Weapon or the like that could give it greater interaction and synergy...

You generally can't get that kind of manipulation out of a 2-minute cooldown that simply ticks, ticks, and is gone. Unlike Scourge, it truly doesn't synergize with any other system in your arsenal.

And let's not pretend that Frey was cut short at a makeshift DoT-CD because people were asking for Scourge's return. Its been left a makeshift DoT because that's where they chose to stop expending effort on 5.0 DRK, not as any sort of homage.

[Izsha]

While valid that Living Shadow is a dot and scourage is also a dot, they are two different kind of dots.

Scourage was up frequently, meaning you needed to actually monitor it. While it was usually a gain, there were strategic reasons to no put it up, or to delay a combo but reapplying early. Living Shadow has no such dual use, as far as anyone can tell it is a just use it ability.

"No interaction with the kit"? What? It wasn't all that much due to the constraints of Grit but even then Scourge was the pacemaker of HW DRK play and even the most minor of adjustments could put it in a position to reward tactical delays or early reapplications of the skill. And that's not even touching on minor, individually positive adjustments to Blood Weapon or the like that could give it greater interaction and synergy...

You generally can't get that kind of manipulation out of a 2-minute cooldown that simply ticks, ticks, and is gone. Unlike Scourge, it truly doesn't synergize with any other system in your arsenal.

And let's not pretend that Frey was cut short at a makeshift DoT-CD because people were asking for Scourge's return. Its been left a makeshift DoT because that's where they chose to stop expending effort on 5.0 DRK, not as any sort of homage.

The point is still that there has been a LOT of requests to bring back scourge purely for the animation. Most players (not just drks) that play this game will never get any value out of GCD maniupulation. That is reserved for highest tier content and the highest tier players. Everyone loves a good aesthetic. Im aware it isnt as frequent a button to hit as a constant uptime 30 sec dot vs 2 min. But the comparison, i feel, still stands. Its a dot with the most badass animation created in this game, and if the calls to return scourge mean anything, its that a lot of people really love the animations. I think sometimes we (the raiders, number crunchers and optimizers) overlook is the value of solid aesthetics and how they influence the feel of a thing. Everyone is focusing on the blandness of the rotation, but every job is bland when you boil it down to 123, 124, 124, 55555 gcd rotation.

This is not to say that the mechanics of a job dont matter. The haste/APM play of Drk has had a serious impact on the feel of the job, but look at how much people have focused over the years on the Drk aura. Scourge animation. The sadness wars have about their recycled animations even though mechanically the abilities themselves reinforce War pretty well, etc, etc. Just dont underestimate the power of the visual to influence how 'fun' a job is or in some cases even create the identity humans attach to it. Its easy to dismiss it as the mathy optimizing raid people, but dont underestimate its impace on making a job fun and appealing, even moreso for the vast swaths of people that dont get all nitty gritty about mechanics. SE should get a point for something they did well that is being (imo) severely downplayed in the search for 'identity'. The visuals are a large piece of that, not just the math.