Why I think Shadowbringers Dark Knight is not going to be fun...

[Darkpaw]

Odd. It seemed entirely coherent to me.

Spending a long time on something doesn't make it good. Nor should we treat something with the same respect as we would if it had been done well just because it has been done at length. If anything, you should be more pissed, since more resources were spent in making the subpar product.

Whether 5.0 DRK will actually be sub-par remains to be seen. That being said, unless they've made drastic revisions since what gameplay we've been shown, we have sufficient information from which to make a conclusion. And so far those willing to discuss that information, rather than make blind assumptions despite it, have predominantly come to expect little from 5.0 DRK's gameplay.

We do? Since when? Where's this finalized info?! I WANT IT! GIVE IT! oh wait right.. we have -checks watch- almost 8 days until the official patch note reading/release which will actually explain things in greater detail so we don't actually have any finalized information.. well.. phooey..

But hey! You must be a psychic!! You can read the future!! So.. my friend and I have a bet going on.. can you tell me with certainty with your special magic powers which character if any is going to die in Shadowbringers? I really want to win.. bragging rights go a long way in my FC so you'd be helping me out a ton...

Alright kidding and light trolling aside. You have assumptions. You have no actual empirical evidence of really anything aside from past patterns and 3rd party information that you did not likely experience for yourself, and even if you did experience it.. old build, not final anything... and only a piece of the wider picture.. I don't know when people abandoned common sense but here I'll throw some out free of charge. (unlike those crappy psychics on t.v. with the infomercials XD) YOU KNOW JACK CRAP ABOUT THE ACTUAL CONTENT ITS MEANT TO BE PLAYED IN! Nothing, notta, zip, zero, bupkiss, let alone anyone who has played this game for ANY decent amount of time knows that true stabilization and optimization doesn't really happen until x.2 patch.. and the first 6 weeks of expansion.. is nothing but constant job adjustments. So... try to keep this in mind before assuming you know everything about a job iteration you have likely never touched and even those who went to the media tour admitted one thing.

it's a secret thing but i'll tell you.. but gotta keep it secret!! THEY DIDNT DO LEVEL 80 CONTENT! -insert sounds of shock and horror here- anyways im done now.. thanks for the entertainment! Byeeeeee

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

it's a secret thing but i'll tell you.. but gotta keep it secret!! THEY DIDNT DO LEVEL 80 CONTENT! -insert sounds of shock and horror here- anyways im done now.. thanks for the entertainment! Byeeeeee

As much as I agree with the part that a lot of things are in fact subject to change and the build was from I think April...? The fact of "they didn't do level 80 content" is irrelevant when you take a look at how much DRK "evolves" after the Lv73-74 dungeon Dhon Mheg:

Lv76: Dark Missionary (mitigation, which we don't have problems with to begin with)
Lv78: Plunge Mastery (2 charges of Plunge)
Lv80: Living Shadow (its a DoT / heavy hitting Ifrit-Egi)

Assuming the "subject-to-change" part only involves potency adjustments and not adding / removing / changing skills, we already have the build of DRK in front of us and we can compare the builds (4.5 DRK vs 5.0 DRK) side by side in terms of GCD flow and oGCD usage. The details we do lack is the eventual change of MP resources and potencies being adjusted, former potentially having a bigger impact in Edge of Shadow usage. If however we are lucky and things "subject-to-change" do include ability additions / changes, then of course your case of "you should've just waited until SHB is live" will come out true.

The problems: Neither is confirmed, so all we can do is speculate and deliver information based on the info we have right now. Additionally, if changes happen, it might not address the issues we have with it (for example lack of any haste effect on DRK, which was a key component of the DRK playstyle) and we are back at square #1 of complaints.

So if anything I have but a plea - don't outright dismiss people's opinion on the information we currently have with the argument of "it might not be what we have in 8 days at all!!" when it is basically a Schroedinger's Cat situation right now and should be discussed in detail.

[Darkpaw]

The issue is speculation is not fact. Opinion is not fact. Feedback can not be provided with any degree of accuracy or even real validity without experience. I could give you feedback about the food in England but it wouldn’t be authentic because all I have ever done is seen and read other’s opinions I’ve never been to england and ate the local cuisine.

It’s not a Shroedinger’s Cat moment at all. It’s gut feelings on limited information with only a minor idea of the content it’s designed for. This is more staring at a tree and calling it a forest. Feedback and discussion should come after confirmed, verified facts with a better view of the entirety of the situation so it can be its most effective and productive.

Constructive criticism is a powerful thing if wielded properly. That is something these forums lack almost entirely, and that is the core problem that should be discussed. Warrior was the worst tank beginning of stormblood. By 4.2 its the absolute best. Remember we dont get beta tests in this game they want genuine feedback not kneejerk opinions presented as it. We dont know even if we have past patterns to rely on thats still a fraction of the entire image. See it all first, experience it all.. then feedback what you think.

[shao32]

I don't need to drive a car to see they change the Steering wheel from left to right and see they put the same Steering wheel and chair of the model at his side.

[Shurrikhan]

The issue is speculation is not fact. Opinion is not fact. Feedback can not be provided with any degree of accuracy or even real validity without experience. I could give you feedback about the food in England but it wouldn’t be authentic because all I have ever done is seen and read other’s opinions I’ve never been to england and ate the local cuisine.

It’s not a Shroedinger’s Cat moment at all. It’s gut feelings on limited information with only a minor idea of the content it’s designed for. This is more staring at a tree and calling it a forest. Feedback and discussion should come after confirmed, verified facts with a better view of the entirety of the situation so it can be its most effective and productive.

Constructive criticism is a powerful thing if wielded properly. That is something these forums lack almost entirely, and that is the core problem that should be discussed. Warrior was the worst tank beginning of stormblood. By 4.2 its the absolute best. Remember we dont get beta tests in this game they want genuine feedback not kneejerk opinions presented as it. We dont know even if we have past patterns to rely on thats still a fraction of the entire image. See it all first, experience it all.. then feedback what you think.

You absolutely can have accuracy without having pressed the buttons in the same order as anyone else with your own hands. That you pressed them does not change what is optimal. That you pressed them, unless you suffer from unique handicaps, is unlikely to change how they generally feel or provide any unique and relevant information that could not be gleaned from a video of the same if you know what you're looking for.

A tooltip is a fact. And given how rarely they're adjusted anything significant between their expansions demos and release, those facts correlate very closely with what we're likely to see when Shadowbringers arrives. The speculation that results from using relevant information to inform ourselves of the future state likely that we might suggest improvements to it is not merely opinion. It is speculation based on facts, each with a high relevant correlative strength.

Potencies may adjust -- we know this because we've seen as much, though many other jobs have been able to keep their theorycrafting spreadsheets verbatim until the first relevant balancing patch of the expansion many months in -- but we do not yet have any reasons to believe that gameplay would change between the pre-release demos and the expansion's release. Remember, even the original Wanderer's Minuet -- an outright DPS loss in the vast, vast majority of situations -- was not changed until weeks after release despite players listing out their exact concerns and their reasons for said concern after seeing the exact same skill in the demos.

We're not just looking at "the tree" when we have literally all the trees. We have the all the tooltips. Though not in dungeons, we've had access to all the skills. We can already figure out, based on stated potencies, exactly which parties would be ideal for the dungeons we've seen, and can easily adjust those equations when we get the final run of potency values. All we lack are the other fights themselves. We may lack for the hills and valleys on which "the forest" stands, but that's it. We know the rest.

All discussion takes place at certain points in time. We did not neglect to discuss 4.0 Warrior just because it would eventually have its potencies raised or could maybe someday see Shake it Off fixed. So why should we neglect to discuss more fundamental issues now? We have no precedent by which to believe that the gameplay we've seen already will not represent what we will receive at launch; all evidence thus far points to us getting exactly what we saw. So why is it any more okay to tell people not to parse the information given and provide feedback for improvement now than two weeks in, or five weeks in, or five months in?

Pure constructive criticism is only possible when space remains by which to construct any idea, to build off of a concept into new iterations. When space is limited, deconstruction must occur first. In other words, it can only occur when no further idea or iteration would ever be precluded by an existing idea or iteration. There cannot be anything, X, which prevents new possibility, Y. And that's not the case here, especially when so many of Shadowbringer's ideas are purely destructive (where X change is purely and simply the removal of Y). When development takes a hard stance that removes something potentially vital, the playerbase cannot simply play off that with another "Yes, and..." while still having any actual voice.

Constructive criticism isn't just "criticism, but better". It's a specific kind, and is only truly viable in specific circumstances: when something is not yet fully constructed, e.g. when there is still room to "build off" the subject's vision and manifest it more positively. If there is no room left, or the vision itself is the issue, then more than just constructive criticism will be required to fix it. If the developers wanted constructive criticism from their playerbase, they would have to first inform us of their ideas before they consider them essentially done and release-ready. Those of us willing to take the time to find the issues and benefits in the upcoming changes would no doubt like to be able to use constructive criticism, but that is simply not something which is available to us. In having any voice then, by which to save one's job's gameplay, some conflict is inevitable.

Edit: And please, please, stop pretending that any gameplay element can be fundamentally changed or uniquely appreciated just because you're hitting the buttons for yourself. We do not need tactile feedback to enjoy even the most cerebral of movies or creepiest of thriller games; we can still weigh or chance, note the lighting elements, the tropes, the act pacing, the map design, all of it, without being physically the one in control. We can judge the possibilities and complexity (or lack thereof) of gameplay without having to be the one's hitting the buttons. Will our conclusions be built around our own manual dexterity in that case? No. But that's hardly a factor in a game as un-demanding as this one.

[Dalmacus]

I know everyone has theorycrafted and simulated imaginary somewhat but for me i'm gonna try and feel it personally if DRK will be fun or not in 5.0. Else, i think it's time to move on to greener pasture and hang up the sword after playing it for 4 years now.

But also i feel it's important to feedback to the devs on why we are not enjoying DRK so they can balance it further in 5.X. They have went as far as to reinstate skills that they have taken out before so it's not the end yet.

[Ramesses]

Odd. It seemed entirely coherent to me.

Whether 5.0 DRK will actually be sub-par remains to be seen. That being said, unless they've made drastic revisions since what gameplay we've been shown, we have sufficient information from which to make a conclusion. And so far those willing to discuss that information, rather than make blind assumptions despite it, have predominantly come to expect little from 5.0 DRK's gameplay.

[Snip]

Interesting how you haven't even unlocked --much less leveled-- the Dark Knight job class.

You're quite long-winded for someone who has played only one job class to 70, innit? Have you actually played your Paladin in Stormblood's end-game battles and substantiated some of your own comments? Unless of course you're hiding another main charcater of your's somewhere.

Wait... have you even completed Stormblood in its entirety? I suggest you be truthful when answering... I reckon people will go verify your response one way or another. If you have indeed completed it, I can identify... matter of fact, I'm taking my third alternate charcater through Stormblood right now. I'm also genuinely asking because a couple of your statements in your previous posts indicates you are quibbling rather than really addressing the core of the topic.

Nonetheless... I believe we're done here, mate.

[Shurrikhan]

Interesting how you haven't even unlocked --much less leveled-- the Dark Knight job class.

The thing about having alts, even if you end up more attached to them than your main and choose to go with one of them into Shadowbringers and adjust your character image accordingly, is that they don't suddenly remove the experience you already gained in leveling all combat jobs to 70 -- some of them multiple times in order to really see or remember what issues you felt the given job had over its leveling process.

Tl;dr: It says "Dark Knight Lv 70" right there, mate.

[blaen]

I understand this "don't talk about things that aren't final / WOW! DID YOU PLAY THE FINAL VERSION LUL" attitude.

Basically, these ideas are being formed based on all available information and our best guesses as to how things will play. If that information changes... great maybe we were worrying over nothing and we can discuss how good or bad the changes really are. Until then the information from the media tour and E3 is all we have to go on.

Obviously, things are subject to change.
Obviously things will change.

This is what we currently have and, in my opinion, it's better to voice our concerns, whether they turn out to be justified or not, rather than have them remain unheard or heard too late.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I understand this "don't talk about things that aren't final / WOW! DID YOU PLAY THE FINAL VERSION LUL" attitude.

Basically, these ideas are being formed based on all available information and our best guesses as to how things will play. If that information changes... great maybe we were worrying over nothing and we can discuss how good or bad the changes really are. Until then the information from the media tour and E3 is all we have to go on.

Obviously, things are subject to change.
Obviously things will change.

This is what we currently have and, in my opinion, it's better to voice our concerns, whether they turn out to be justified or not, rather than have them remain unheard or heard too late.

At this point people like Ramesses are just there to be trolls...