Why I think Shadowbringers Dark Knight is not going to be fun...

[FallenWings]

That's a rather harsh assessment towards the team that spent a vast considerable amount of time developing improvements for Dark Knight in Shadowbringers.

Can I see a video of where you established a summary test of all these...?

If someone took a considerable amount of time to take a dump and call it artwork, should they be respected/defended because they took a lot of time taking said dump?

Exaggeration ofcourse and no one here is hate bashing the devs. People are simply disappointed by the current projection of DRK gameplay based on the information gleamed from the media event, which requires no more than 2 braincells to piece together due to the mathematical nature of the game. You don't need to """""feel""""" the way you will press buttons to know how you are going to press said buttons.

[DRKoftheAzure]

That's a rather harsh assessment towards the team that spent a vast considerable amount of time developing improvements for Dark Knight in Shadowbringers.

Can I see a video of where you established a summary test of all these...?

I'm only judging with what little info we have on 5.0 DRK... but trends point toward DRK mains switching to either GNB or PLD...(And this is coming from a DRK main since I unlocked it in Heavensward when Weeping City of Mhach, A5-8 normal and savage mode, as well as Nidhogg EX was current content at that time... Unless you want to count Thordan EX as well... I actually cleared that one in Heavensward... felt good to get that clear back then on DRK)

If someone took a considerable amount of time to take a dump and call it artwork, should they be respected/defended because they took a lot of time taking said dump?

Exaggeration ofcourse and no one here is hate bashing the devs. People are simply disappointed by the current projection of DRK gameplay based on the information gleamed from the media event, which requires no more than 2 braincells to piece together due to the mathematical nature of the game. You don't need to """""feel""""" the way you will press buttons to know how you are going to press said buttons.

Are you talking about me or the 5.0 DRK...? Because at this point I might as well except both as valid since on the internet I'm not allowed to have opinions...

[Ramesses]

I'm only judging with what little info we have on 5.0 DRK...

...And I'll halt you right there because you have perfectly underlined exactly what I was quietly getting you to understand. You are already judging the book by the mere look of the cover... in other words, already judging the job class by the --your own very words-- "little info we have on 5.0 DRK". This is precisely why I politely asked in my previous post...

Can I see a video of where you established a summary test of all these...?

The keyword I wanted to emphasize was you. Have YOU played the new 5.0 DRK job at length? Did you play it in a high end battle against Innocence or against a boss in Eden? Have you tested it, found the kinks, found the most optimal rotations, found the bugs, the flow, the inbalances? And yet you created a thread with a peculiar title, with a post that --at first glance-- gives the impression that you have sat uninterrupted with the new 5.0 DRK for a full week.

Of all the participants who attended the event in San Francisco... not counting those who attended the European event in London... only Happy, MTQ, Larry, DrakGamestein, Gamerescape and a couple others have released decent videos of the new DRK gameplay. Each and every one of them had their own unique reviews regarding the job and every single one of them established an important message:

This is an in-development build of FINAL FANTASY XIV: Shadowbringers, and content in the final version is subject to change.

Reinhart's and Nedkel's assessments on pages 1 and 2 were much more realistic; both of them giving solid critical thought to their comments and supporting them with facts that we are all familiar with. The point I'm trying to make you understand is that it takes a massive team of talented people anywhere from six to eighteen months --at times even as much as two years-- to fully develop and balance a job class.

Respect their work and give an honest opinion only AFTER Shadowbringers is released and you have played the job for at least a sufficient amount of time.

They deserve at least that much.

If someone took a considerable amount of time to take a dump and call it artwork, should they be respected/defended because they took a lot of time taking said dump?

Exaggeration ofcourse and no one here is hate bashing the devs. People are simply disappointed by the current projection of DRK gameplay based on the information gleamed from the media event, which requires no more than 2 braincells to piece together due to the mathematical nature of the game. You don't need to """""feel""""" the way you will press buttons to know how you are going to press said buttons.

... I'm not even going to venture forth a response to this incoherence.

[DRKoftheAzure]

...And I'll halt you right there because you have perfectly underlined exactly what I was quietly getting you to understand. You are already judging the book by the mere look of the cover... in other words, already judging the job class by the --your own very words-- "little info we have on 5.0 DRK". This is precisely why I politely asked in my previous post...



The keyword I wanted to emphasize was you. Have YOU played the new 5.0 DRK job at length? Did you play it in a high end raid against a boss like Innocence? Have you tested it, found the kinks, the bugs, the flow, the inbalances? And yet you created a thread with a peculiar title, with a post that --at first glance-- gives the impression that you have sat uninterrupted with the new 5.0 DRK for a full week.

Of all the participants who attended the event in San Francisco... not counting those who attended the European event in London... only Happy, MTQ, Larry, DrakGamestein, Gamerescape and a couple others have released decent videos of the new DRK gameplay. Each and every one of them had their own unique reviews regarding the job and every single one of them established an important message:



Reinhart's and Nedkel's assessments on pages 1 and 2 were much more realistic; both of them giving solid critical thought to their comments and supporting them with facts that we are all familiar with. The point I'm trying to make you understand is that it takes a massive team of talented people anywhere from six to eighteen months --at times even as much as two years-- to fully develop and balance a job class.

Respect their work and give an honest opinion only AFTER Shadowbringers is released and you have played the job for at least a sufficient amount of time.

They deserve at least that much.

Do you even remember Stormblood launch and how WARs got angry about how some of their new abilities that were really bad at launch?

Do you even remember DRKs getting shafted by WAR and PLD in party finders?

Do you main DRK?

Do you even play tank role?

Did you even play Heavensward DRK and Stormblood DRK?

Some the youtubers you mentioned don't even main any of the tanks, or even DRK for that matter. They just casually level them up and maybe role them for fun when not putting out videos, which I'm okay with them playing any of the tank jobs for fun if they what they have and bring fun...

What DRK is most likely going to bring compared to the other 3 tanks pretty much nothing that the other tanks can't already do but better,and it looks like GNB and DRK are going to get locked out of party finder groups, because they don't have the utility that WAR and PLD, or there will just be 1 tank, 2 healer, and 5 DPS for all of the raid encounters that don't have forced tank swaps...

I wouldn't even be surprised if people left dungeons because of a DRK being the tank of the dungeon...

[Lyth]

I think the concern over DRK is reasonable. A lot of people were concerned about DRK after the Stormblood media tour. There was a lot of detailed analysis that was done based by looking at potencies. There was debate. People advocated that we wait and see. The nerfs at launch were even worse than what we saw during the media tour. It took them, what, 8-10 months after launch to even admit that there was a problem?

When they made a decision to rework PLD going into Stormblood, they did a pretty good job of it. They presumably put in the same effort here, but the present iteration doesn't really seem to have answered any of the concerns that we've raised. There's no cohesion. The only consistent theme that we have going for us is that we're weak against physical attacks. What makes this even more worrying is that if this is their best effort, it isn't going to get any better.

The unfortunate thing is that it's all very fixable. Just double down on resource stealing. Make lifesteal, MP, and blood generation all interact with each other. DRK doesn't need to be the hardest hitting or the most defensive tank. It just needs to have a central theme that pulls everything together.

[Darkpaw]

And here i thought it was just going to be healers that i’d get mindless entertainment from. Got to agree that Dark to me looks at least a slight bit more interesting then all the dark arts nonsense of 4.x

Cant say for sure it will be but hey i look forward to finding out in a few days. For me there wasn’t anything really engaging about dark in 4.x aside from having a bit of fun solo tanking o6s when it was relevant. (Oh god i know its so horrid for parses but its a ton of fun to see people who doubt its possible react when you actually do it.)

But gameplay wise it kinda sucked in my opinion. It wasn’t as brain dead as warrior but it wasn’t super interesting either. Power slash being gone really doesn’t bug me. I used it once? Maybe twice during pull and never touched it again. The animation really not that great.. (ooo im gonna shoulder tackle the flat of my blade against you... cmon i have a GIANT SWORD! I want to cleave some people in two.) dark passenger was a meme until it got buffed, sole survivor was alright i guess.. i mean better after it was buffed.. but first part of sb it was kinda.. meh?

Like really... going back through (cant speak for heavensward so i wont) ill take what seems to be a slightly more engaging dark knight in shadowbringers over the dark arts bot dark knight in stormblood but thats just me.

Disclaimer: i dont claim, pretend, or think im a great dark knight but i have fun with it and i have enjoyed it this expansion despite my criticisms, but i can recognize this stormblood iteration had it’s flaws and while i dont know what it will be in shadowbringers until i experience it myself. From what i have seen it looks mildly more entertaining and engaging than just dark arts this dark arts that.. one dark arts power slash, drop grit, and blood weapon and delirium on cd..

[DRKoftheAzure]

And here i thought it was just going to be healers that i’d get mindless entertainment from. Got to agree that Dark to me looks at least a slight bit more interesting then all the dark arts nonsense of 4.x

I was hyped to actually touch AST in 5.0 after seeing job action trailer, but leaks and media tour info dropped and revealed that it was all damage up buffs for all cards(would have been nice for certain card to do something more than just damage up for certain roles but that will probably 6.0 to happen)... R.I.P. buff healer fantasy...

Cant say for sure it will be but hey i look forward to finding out in a few days. For me there wasn’t anything really engaging about dark in 4.x aside from having a bit of fun solo tanking o6s when it was relevant. (Oh god i know its so horrid for parses but its a ton of fun to see people who doubt its possible react when you actually do it.)

Sounds like chaotic fun... not gonna lie...

But gameplay wise it kinda sucked in my opinion. It wasn’t as brain dead as warrior but it wasn’t super interesting either. Power slash being gone really doesn’t bug me. I used it once? Maybe twice during pull and never touched it again. The animation really not that great.. (ooo im gonna shoulder tackle the flat of my blade against you... cmon i have a GIANT SWORD! I want to cleave some people in two.) dark passenger was a meme until it got buffed, sole survivor was alright i guess.. i mean better after it was buffed.. but first part of sb it was kinda.. meh?

WARs IR=Fell Cleave spam is basically BLM Fire 4 Spam... and Power Slash animation was downward slash followed by blast of dark energy from the free hand, which was AWSEOME. Dark Passenger was okay but could have been WAY better that's for sure, same with Sole Survivor after it got buffed... Also I will take Dark Arts spam over Fire 4/Fell Cleave spam window anyday...

Like really... going back through (cant speak for heavensward so i wont) ill take what seems to be a slightly more engaging dark knight in shadowbringers over the dark arts bot dark knight in stormblood but thats just me.

If you find it fun more power to you, if you don't there are certainly other options like GNB or PLD in terms of tanking...

Disclaimer: i dont claim, pretend, or think im a great dark knight but i have fun with it and i have enjoyed it this expansion despite my criticisms, but i can recognize this stormblood iteration had it’s flaws and while i dont know what it will be in shadowbringers until i experience it myself. From what i have seen it looks mildly more entertaining and engaging than just dark arts this dark arts that.. one dark arts power slash, drop grit, and blood weapon and delirium on cd..

Going Gritless in boss fights and switching between Power Slash and Souleater was way more fun for me and actually felt like stance dancing, but that's also my personal preference(Yes I like alternating between GCD rotations)...

[Darkpaw]

I was hyped to actually touch AST in 5.0 after seeing job action trailer, but leaks and media tour info dropped and revealed that it was all damage up buffs for all cards(would have been nice for certain card to do something more than just damage up for certain roles but that will probably 6.0 to happen)... R.I.P. buff healer fantasy...



Sounds like chaotic fun... not gonna lie...



WARs IR=Fell Cleave spam is basically BLM Fire 4 Spam... and Power Slash animation was downward slash followed by blast of dark energy from the free hand, which was AWSEOME. Dark Passenger was okay but could have been WAY better that's for sure, same with Sole Survivor after it got buffed... Also I will take Dark Arts spam over Fire 4/Fell Cleave spam window anyday...



If you find it fun more power to you, if you don't there are certainly other options like GNB or PLD in terms of tanking...



Going Gritless in boss fights and switching between Power Slash and Souleater was way more fun for me and actually felt like stance dancing, but that's also my personal preference(Yes I like alternating between GCD rotations)...

Hey man i'm all for people finding enjoyment however they like. I do plan to pick up GNB mainly because I'm a huge fan of 8 and ever since i first started this game (end of 3.2 beginning of 3.3ish?) I have wanted a gunblade job (granted I expected it to actually be a DPS not a tank but eh whatever.) so I'm super excited to play it, but I do want to try Dark Knight and see if I still find some enjoyment out of it because as I said I did enjoy the class in 4.x despite my reservations about it. And yea you're right I completely screwed up the animations Idk why but yea.. sorry about that..

as for o6s solo tanking it was kinda chaotic fun but it was a lot of fun I had a blast doing it. By far one of my favorite moments of stormblood personally. Especially that first time I did it. It was such a rush. I am still looking forward to trying AST as I plan for it to be my first healer to 80, yea card changes are a little.. lackluster but the rest of the changes actually seem kinda fun and interesting.. and atleast I don't have to worry about a spire when i need an ewer or whatever else anymore.. that'll be nice. Plus.. no fishing for balances or getting yelled at for not pulling enough balances because RNGesus hates my guts xD.

[Shurrikhan]

... I'm not even going to venture forth a response to this incoherence.

Odd. It seemed entirely coherent to me.

Spending a long time on something doesn't make it good. Nor should we treat something with the same respect as we would if it had been done well just because it has been done at length. If anything, you should be more pissed, since more resources were spent in making the subpar product.

Whether 5.0 DRK will actually be sub-par remains to be seen. That being said, unless they've made drastic revisions since what gameplay we've been shown, we have sufficient information from which to make a conclusion. And so far those willing to discuss that information, rather than make blind assumptions despite it, have predominantly come to expect little from 5.0 DRK's gameplay.

These conclusions, in turn, have been met with either (1) guilt-tripping/red herring ("But consider the time spent!") or (2) condescension / degradation of processes ("You can't know until you play it for yourself!" despite optimal play being identical between whether you are the one pressing the rigid order of relatively few keys or Xeno is).

You've no doubt already seen responses enough to the condescension. What you have quoted, and refused to try to understand, was a response to the guilt-tripping, showing that the basis for any such argument is irrelevant; reasonable people do not weigh merits by time spent, but purely the quality produced.

Does that clear things up for you?

[DRKoftheAzure]

Hey man i'm all for people finding enjoyment however they like.

Likewise.

I do plan to pick up GNB mainly because I'm a huge fan of 8 and ever since i first started this game (end of 3.2 beginning of 3.3ish?) I have wanted a gunblade job (granted I expected it to actually be a DPS not a tank but eh whatever.) so I'm super excited to play it, but I do want to try Dark Knight and see if I still find some enjoyment out of it because as I said I did enjoy the class in 4.x despite my reservations about it.

Funny you should mention FF8 because I only knew about Squall through Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia games and with FF8 getting a remaster, I figured I might as well give a try on Nintendo Switch when it launches, and I am also planning on picking up GNB since I did give Squall a shot in Dissidia duodecim, and NT(duodecim is bar far the more polished of the Dissidia games btw) and I was also able to get some enjoyment out of DRK in 4.x overlall, and got some EX clears on content and a Savage clear on content, although I might level DRK as second-to-last tank for 5.x...

And yea you're right I completely screwed up the animations Idk why but yea.. sorry about that..

It happens, so don't worry about it... at least it's not MNK where Shoulder Tackle looks like it should be Steel Peak and Steel Peak looks like it should be Shoulder Tackle...

as for o6s solo tanking it was kinda chaotic fun but it was a lot of fun I had a blast doing it. By far one of my favorite moments of stormblood personally. Especially that first time I did it. It was such a rush.

That's good to hear.

I am still looking forward to trying AST as I plan for it to be my first healer to 80, yea card changes are a little.. lackluster but the rest of the changes actually seem kinda fun and interesting.. and atleast I don't have to worry about a spire when i need an ewer or whatever else anymore.. that'll be nice. Plus.. no fishing for balances or getting yelled at for not pulling enough balances because RNGesus hates my guts xD.

Like the seals and role stuff they manage to get right mostly for the card it's just everything is damage up and nothing else; Good idea, bad execution, but at least they are on the right track, though Lord of Crowns could have provided healing and shielding and Lady Crowns healing and regen on top of damage up... just something I would do if I were to design an RNG buff healer class/job...