The Warrior of Light is not tempered by Hydaelyn.

[Theodric]

The Warrior of Light is the exception to many a rule, to be fair. Tempering may also abide by different laws when it comes to beings that operate on a higher scale of power and circumstances to anything we've dealt with so far.

In short? Let's wait and see. It's only a little under two weeks to go until we get some major lore revelations to chew on and I don't believe we should be clinging to absolutes.

[Iscah]

But on the broader issue...

In short? Let's wait and see. It's only a little under two weeks to go until we get some major lore revelations to chew on and I don't believe we should be clinging to absolutes.

Prettymuch this. We don't know enough to be stating anything for certain right now, and should wait for the full explanation before trying to make sense of it.

[Floortank]

The Warrior of Light is the exception to many a rule, to be fair. Tempering may also abide by different laws when it comes to beings that operate on a higher scale of power and circumstances to anything we've dealt with so far.

In short? Let's wait and see. It's only a little under two weeks to go until we get some major lore revelations to chew on and I don't believe we should be clinging to absolutes.

Tempering in every case we've ever seen means loss of free will and utter slavery. The tempered are in utter thrall to the one that has tempered them.

If you're positing that the WOL has free will, then they're not tempered, as that's the only defining feature of tempering.

[Iscah]

Tempering in every case we've ever seen means loss of free will and utter slavery. The tempered are in utter thrall to the one that has tempered them.

If you're positing that the WOL has free will, then they're not tempered, as that's the only defining feature of tempering.

Loss of free will is the only defining characteristic as far as we currently know. And we're (possibly) about to know a whole lot more.

Even then, it's debatable and the degree of free will varies. Our first sighting of the soldiers tempered by Ifrit showed them rendered into mindless worshippers. But we've seen others like the Ananta, who have retained the ability to at least seem to think and act 'normally' and be undetectable to others around them. They may still be free to act independently in any matters not related to what their god wants or doesn't want them to do.

[Floortank]

Loss of free will is the only defining characteristic as far as we currently know. And we're (possibly) about to know a whole lot more.

Even then, it's debatable and the degree of free will varies. Our first sighting of the soldiers tempered by Ifrit showed them rendered into mindless worshippers. But we've seen others like the Ananta, who have retained the ability to at least seem to think and act 'normally' and be undetectable to others around them. They may still be free to act independently in any matters not related to what their god wants or doesn't want them to do.

The Ananta were completely without free will, they were just able to plan and execute a scheme at their primal's behest. But that's not even the real issue.

The defining trait of tempering isn't even loss of free will in a generalized sense; it's that you are forced to worship and obey the primal.

Hydaelyn told Ajora to betray her and unleash a calamitous monster she went to great pains to seal away? No.

Ifrit's guys were fawning and craven in their adoration but that doesn't mean he burned away their brains. We've seen the tempered execute schemes and sabotage in the past. That's why the Alliance executes the Tempered. They're not just zombie-like thralls you can spot at a hundred yalms. They're actually dangerous.

[Leaf_Dragoon]

The Ananta were completely without free will, they were just able to plan and execute a scheme at their primal's behest. But that's not even the real issue.

The defining trait of tempering isn't even loss of free will in a generalized sense; it's that you are forced to worship and obey the primal.

Hydaelyn told Ajora to betray her and unleash a calamitous monster she went to great pains to seal away? No.

Ifrit's guys were fawning and craven in their adoration but that doesn't mean he burned away their brains. We've seen the tempered execute schemes and sabotage in the past. That's why the Alliance executes the Tempered. They're not just zombie-like thralls you can spot at a hundred yalms. They're actually dangerous.

I agree the Amal'jaa quests showed that Ifrit's tempered are perfectly capable of going undercover within non-tempered societies to reek havoc. I'm pretty sure that one of the brotherhood of Ash claims that Little Ala Mhigo was filled with tempered spies.

[Eyvind]

I agree the Amal'jaa quests showed that Ifrit's tempered are perfectly capable of going undercover within non-tempered societies to reek havoc. I'm pretty sure that one of the brotherhood of Ash claims that Little Ala Mhigo was filled with tempered spies.

Those same quests show a woman driven entirely insane by tempering (Loonh Gah's mother). She believes a rock is her daughter, and she plans to give that rock-daughter to Ifrit. The Amalja'a leader says it happens, Ifrit's fires are too strong and it destroys their minds.

I think of tempering like "indoctrination" in the Mass Effect series. The Reapers in Mass Effect can hack biological minds and make them servants, but there's a deterioration effect. Once indoctrination takes hold (and it is also a kind one-way mind-hack from which the victim cannot be cured) the victim becomes increasingly loyal and unquestioning, but also simpler in their thinking and less subtle. The final stage is mindless zombie.

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

Unsurprisingly, there was a subset of fans who were convinced that the protagonist of the Mass Effect was "indoctrinated," and the writers never went that direction. It wasn't a direction for competent writers to go - a cheap twist M. Night Shyamalan twist that bad writers use to make themselves seem deeper and more nuanced than they are. I have faith that Banri Oda is a better writer than that as well.

[Bright-Flower]

Those same quests show a woman driven entirely insane by tempering (Loonh Gah's mother). She believes a rock is her daughter, and she plans to give that rock-daughter to Ifrit. The Amalja'a leader says it happens, Ifrit's fires are too strong and it destroys their minds.

I think of tempering like "indoctrination" in the Mass Effect series. The Reapers in Mass Effect can hack biological minds and make them servants, but there's a deterioration effect. Once indoctrination takes hold (and it is also a kind one-way mind-hack from which the victim cannot be cured) the victim becomes increasingly loyal and unquestioning, but also simpler in their thinking and less subtle. The final stage is mindless zombie.

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

Unsurprisingly, there was a subset of fans who were convinced that the protagonist of the Mass Effect was "indoctrinated," and the writers never went that direction. It wasn't a direction for competent writers to go - a cheap twist M. Night Shyamalan twist that bad writers use to make themselves seem deeper and more nuanced than they are. I have faith that Banri Oda is a better writer than that as well.

I think some people just cling to the indoctrination theory because the original endings were a letdown and they wanted for SOMETHING more potentially interesting to be going on, but that's just my guess.

[ObsidianFire]

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

Tempering also varies a lot with the primal that is doing the tempering. We never see people change shape with Ifirit's tempering, no matter how broken their minds are. Rahmu only tempers people who ask him to temper them. Leviathan's tempered have no suitability... etc.