Nobody Really Wants To Heal

[Adrestia]

WoW went the wrong way and turned healing into an endless session of whack-a-mole. Watch any raid footage and you can see the entire raids HP fluctuating madly for the whole fight.

Bosses don't need to hit harder, they need to hit the party frequently and unpredictably.

Er...but hitting the party frequently and unpredictably is what creates that (fun and engaging, in my experience) whack-a-mole effect? I’m confused how these two statements jive.

Going back to the last time I played seriously (a brief stint with Legion showed me I didn’t like where class mechanics and gameplay had gone) in WotLK, when I mained a resto shaman, I remember the whack-a-mole keeping me laser focused or people died. To me anyway, that’s what healing is about.

In the Anub’Arak fight in ToGC, you had tank damage, unavoidable AoEs, random target DoTs, fight mechanics (dodging/kiting stuff) to do yourself, plus the boss would frequently put a very heavy DoT up on a number of people that would kill them in 1-2 globals. Your job for that mechanic was to almost instantaneously identify which of the raid members under your purview got the debuff and was going to die first, heal them, and as soon as that heal landed, heal the second person you were responsible for. Every healer in the raid had to do this on top of their responsibilities. It created a real sense of urgency and intensity for the entire fight; if you fell behind on your other responsibilities, someone would die while you were healing up people with this DoT. If you were mentally exhausted after doing your own mechanics and didn’t pivot into DoT-healing mode instantly on demand, people died. Your performance mattered from the moment the boss was pulled until the moment he died (much like the performance of the tanks and DPS did).

(Speaking broadly, not to the person I quoted to ask a question of)
Now, I know what I just described there sounds *awful* to a lot of people here. To those people who “play games to relax” and just want to waltz through a dungeon and can feel like a hero without the hard work. I get it, really. You play games in a way that is different to me and to people who like WoW/RIFT/insert-other-GCD-limited-MMO healing.

However, in the game model SE has chosen, in which every player is thrown into the grinder that is expert dungeons, normal mode raids, first 2 fights of savage maybe, it is impossible to please us both. The expert you enjoy is one that makes me want to fall asleep. The one I enjoy is one that stresses you out. But I need tomestones too. For me, who loves Eureka, I had a great alternative for most of the 4.x cycle. But many people didn’t like that and so still had to do experts. We don’t *want* to be there, but game design demands that we pay the expert penance to get our gear for the content we like. That’s the source of this un-fun “can we just clear this and get it over with already?” feeling. It’s not big epeen DPS (although for a time that can be a distraction from the monotony).

How would people feel if game design was shifted so that there were level 70 “normal modes” that gave tomes and gear at a lower rate, and all-new “experts” that were designed for a must-heal-like-a-madman type of gameplay? RIFT had experts like that at launch and a lot of people got the idea that the game had ended for them because it was too hard. WoW today has mythic+ dungeons but I don’t know how broadly received they are. For my two cents, I hate tomestones as a concept and would see them go away, but I don’t see that happening any time soon.
This also came right off the back of the Twin Valks fight, where you kind of got to roll your face across your best AoE heals all fight and satisfy yourself with godlike healing numbers for little effort. So not every fight was peak intensity, but you still mattered.

[Sylve]

Er...but hitting the party frequently and unpredictably is what creates that (fun and engaging, in my experience) whack-a-mole effect? I’m confused how these two statements jive.

As a fellow Resto Shaman during LK progression, I fully agree that WOTLK was the last time healing was fun in WoW.
The whack-a-mole I refer to is present, BfA WoW (Though Legion and WoD wasn't much different). What I mean is that the entire party is taking taking damage at all times, it never stops. Theres nothing unpredictable about that, its just all of the damage, all of the time.

Also, the point of my post was that the frequent, unpredictable damage to the party is the better solution. Just don't go full whack-a-mole with it so I get the opportunity to consider which of my tools is best suited to the damage levels the party is currently at, rather than 'Medica is the best option to use always, for everything because the entire party never stops taking damage'

PS: I think XIV would benefit greatly from its own unique scaling of Dungeons.
Think reverse Level Sync. Syncing the Dungeon to the level of the party (requiring max level of course). Imagine doing your EX Roulette and having that Sastasha run scaled up to cap and dropping Aetherial versions of the base drops that were comparable, buyt not better, than the best obtainable gear from a standard max level EX dungeon.

If it was set up properly, we'd have 63 dungeons in the EX Roulettes as of now and then when we hit the new cap, the Syncing scales to the new cap and we have 63+ whatever number of dungeons the new expansion gave in the EX roulette. Alternative gearing methods via aetherial gear that scales to match the ilvl of current dungeon gear.
Give us the ability to push that Sync higher in premade parties to push up the difficulty and rewards.

Ideally, a company needs to figure out a system where Tanks and Healers have their own, dedicated, infinitely scaling way of gearing. That doesn't run into the issues of Tank defence vs Healer healing vs Encounter damage all working to make things really convoluted and often causing Tank and/or Healer item level increases to not have the same feel good impact that DPS get with their straightforward damage dealing capacity.

Damage to the Tank is a steady constant in raid content. Its party damage that usually causes wipes, as that party damage distracts the Healer and opens up opportunities for the tank to get KO'd. Which is why I advocate frequent unpredictable party damage. You don't need to worry about Tank scaling, since the Tank getting tankier would only lessen the effects of being distracted healing the party. Everyones HP naturally rises with better gear, so as long as the party damage was tuned properly, a Healer would be managing the health bars of the party and occasionally throwing in DPS if they're skilled enough to open a window to do so.
No need for reinventing the wheel as far as Tanking/healing gear/mechanics go.

[Adrestia]

As a fellow Resto Shaman during LK progression, I fully agree that WOTLK was the last time healing was fun in WoW.
The whack-a-mole I refer to is present, BfA WoW (Though Legion and WoD wasn't much different). What I mean is that the entire party is taking taking damage at all times, it never stops. Theres nothing unpredictable about that, its just all of the damage, all of the time.

Oh yeah, very good distinction. Whack-a-mole, whether the arcade classic or the healing pattern, is no fun with a steady rhythm. You need to be put off your guard and then stressed. That’s super important.

[Kalise]

Damage to the Tank is a steady constant in raid content. Its party damage that usually causes wipes, as that party damage distracts the Healer and opens up opportunities for the tank to get KO'd. Which is why I advocate frequent unpredictable party damage. You don't need to worry about Tank scaling, since the Tank getting tankier would only lessen the effects of being distracted healing the party. Everyones HP naturally rises with better gear, so as long as the party damage was tuned properly, a Healer would be managing the health bars of the party and occasionally throwing in DPS if they're skilled enough to open a window to do so.
No need for reinventing the wheel as far as Tanking/healing gear/mechanics go.

Except... In this situation, you've put the emphasis on party damage, not Tank damage. So... What's a Tank getting out of gearing up? When the difference between a wipe and a save is how much the healer can heal the party? Tank gets tankier and... It doesn't matter because it's about how much the healer can heal the party?

Not to mention, Tank damage is not a steady constant. In so far as gearing goes. Tank damage is the only mechanic that double dips in effects of gearing. Since, Tank damage is influenced both by how well the Tank is geared, so how much damage they're mitigating. In addition, to being effected by how geared the Healer is, in how potent fluff damage mitigation/restoration is (Stuff like Regens and Shields).

This means that a Tank's gearing can be overshone by healer gearing if things like Regens are overhealing them constantly, or if a random Critlo negates all damage between tankbusters.

All this goes back to the initial qualm you raised, whereby Tank and Healer gearing actively works against the opposite role. Tank getting Tankier means the Healer has to heal less. Healer getting stronger heals means the Tank has to mitigate less. Both get stronger in their respective roles and... You have redundant stats because now you're mitigating too much and being healed too much where neither party feels like they've progressed or have anywhere left to progress.

You can argue about "Just make the non-Tanks take damage lul" but then... What's a Tank to feel? They're supposed to be protecting their allies by taking the focus, but now encounters are designed around other targets randomly being blasted that they can't do anything about? With not even their own mitigation mattering any more? Then there's the whole what's a Healer supposed to do when people start dying because if someone makes a mistake it can randomly mean their death because they get a vuln stack or take some damage and then get blasted in the face by RNG and die without being able to be healed?

How is gearing up either of these roles supposed to matter when the Tank no longer cares about mitigation, because the threatening damage isn't targeted at them and when the Healer no longer cares about stronger heals because it's only the DPS (Whom scale less with Vitality) that are being targeted by damage and thus can by unpredictable party damage in combination with a messed up mechanic cause insta-kills and thus not be healed?

In theory, the idea of a Tank becoming Tankier so that a Healer can focus on healing other targets, whom will unpredictably take damage so that the healer has to react sounds reasonable. But when you actually think about it, it doesn't do anything with the issue regarding gearing and it instead opens up a can of worms that involve potential one shots (Due to how mechanics work in the game) to DPS.

Like, yes, less predictable damage should be used. As well as both party and tank damage. But there should be generally more focus on the Tank taking damage, since that's literally their role. That's why they have a ton of mitigation skills.

Though, this discussion on how damage is dealt, is independent of one surrounding gear scaling with Tanks and Healers. Since, how damage is applied, doesn't negate the fact that Tanks and Healers negate each others gear progression by making the damage the Tank takes double dip in upgrades - Which, when every piece of content is supposed to be doable with minimum item level across the board, can quickly scale into a point where returns from upgrades are neither noticeable nor relevant. Again, as opposed to the DPS role in which more damage scales infinitely and is unaffected by any other role (I.e. A Tank being Tankier doesn't make your DPS's damage feel any less relevant. Same with a Healer healing more)

[Sylve]

Except... In this situation, you've put the emphasis on party damage, not Tank damage. So... What's a Tank getting out of gearing up? When the difference between a wipe and a save is how much the healer can heal the party? Tank gets tankier and... It doesn't matter because it's about how much the healer can heal the party?

Tanks gear up to more easily absorb Tankbusters.
The steady constant I referred to is the clockwork nature of the boss Autoattacks and Busters. You always know as the Healer that the Tank will be taking small hits every 2~ seconds and getting chunked on a timetable. The Tank gearing up means those smaller hits are more easily repaired via the Tanks own ability to self heal while the busters see are handled with cooldowns and repaired by the Healer. The more easily the Tank handles those busters, the less MP the Healer has to expend to repair it. In that sense, their gearing has synergy, if indirectly.
However, the clockwork nature of incoming Tank damage is part of the problem. Tis the reason I suggested boss abilities move to random cooldown times within a certain range. The mere fact that a Tank CAN have a mitigation cooldown available for every single Tankbuster devalues the Tanks gearing in the present game.
If those Tank busters came both more frequently and less predictably, The effect on their damage intake that ilvl upgrades have is more noticeable.
Please note though, that in such a scenario, the busters themselves wouldn't hit quite so hard and would force the tank to take care to ensure a sudden spike via back to back busters is manageable for the Healer should it happen.

In regards to the Tank 'protecting' the party and it feeling weird to the Tank that the party takes so much damage, how do you justify party damage in the current game? The Tank is doing their job by holding the dangerous foe at bay, but that dangerous foe has skills and abilities that hit an area. Even to roleplay a little, surely an enemy is intelligent enough to know that although the Tank has their focus, the guy with the Lance stabbing him in the kidneys and the other 6 people its engaged with are also a threat and will lash out at said threat regardless of what the Tank is doing.



On a somewhat related note, with the removal of skills like Diversion, DPS will no longer be able to easily control their Enmity generation. Making the Tanks gearing more relevant beyond basic mitigation concerns. They'll need that extra DPS afforded by the higher ilvls to keep up with the DPS. That's dependent on how effective the new Tank Stances are though.

[Kalise]

Tanks gear up to more easily absorb Tankbusters.

Though, that's hardly an exciting prospect.

One that's also mitigated by Scholar getting better gear to provide stronger shields.

The Tank gearing up means those smaller hits are more easily repaired via the Tanks own ability to self heal

Except the fact that Tanks self healing is pretty miniscule outside of 1m CD's which is not particularly good for dealing with fluff damage.

The more easily the Tank handles those busters, the less MP the Healer has to expend to repair it.

Except the part where oGCD's cost no MP.

Also, where MP management is barely a factor for Healers between Lucid Dreaming (Which is being buffed in 5.0) and Piety (Which is being buffed in 5.0). MP is only a concern when Raises need to be used frequently.

In that sense, their gearing has synergy, if indirectly.

Though, the reality is that their gearing has anti-synergy.

Healers don't have MP problems due to healing Tanks. Tanks don't have much issue with dealing with TB's (Even more so in 5.0 when Tanks will be able to help other Tanks mitigate them). The end result is healers make fluff damage completely irrelevant for Tanks thanks to Regen/Adlo. Adlo can also help mitigate TB's. Tanks get tankier and further reduce how much damage they take (So Regen overheals more)

However, the clockwork nature of incoming Tank damage is part of the problem. Tis the reason I suggested boss abilities move to random cooldown times within a certain range.

Except you never mentioned Tankbusters or in fact any damage to the tank.

You went on about randomized party damage and how healing the rest of the party is splitting Healers focus and thus making Tanks defences relevant while they have to go periods without Healer focus as the party is taking randomized damage.

The mere fact that a Tank CAN have a mitigation cooldown available for every single Tankbuster devalues the Tanks gearing in the present game.

But... That's literally the point of a Tankbuster. It forces you to have a mitigation cooldown available or you get busted.

The devaluing of tank mitigation comes from how easy it is to rotate Holmgang > Vengeance + Rampart > Sentinel + Rampart > Vengeance + Rampart ad infinitum.

Where a significant portion of Tankbusters can be simply immuned with Holmgang/Hallowed Ground (Living Dead and soon Superbolide also) with the rest just taking every other CD you have. Since fluff damage is completely irrelevant due to Regen+Adlo so you don't have to care about using CD's for anything else.

Other games have fluff damage that is actually threatening, with healers whom don't have infinite MP. So Tanks are incentivized to keep rolling their defensive CD's to mitigate the fluff damage, but also making sure to still have a CD to deal with the Tankbusters. Thus, mitigation from gearing maintains usefulness, as you can more easily go through the fluff damage without using your stronger CD's so you can hold them for the TB's.

Please note though, that in such a scenario, the busters themselves wouldn't hit quite so hard and would force the tank to take care to ensure a sudden spike via back to back busters is manageable for the Healer should it happen.

There should never, ever be the potential to have back to back busters (Unless it's a specific mechanic for in an encounter that is designed to use some sort of TB > Tank Swap > TB style gameplay)

That level of random is just praying that RNG doesn't decide to maul your party down by having tons of burst in quick succession. Or, alternatively, gutting the damage of skills down to near irrelevance just in case the boss decides to TB > TB > RB > RB > TB > TB > RB > RB all back to back because RNG.

Yes, things should be less strictly timed. But it should be a more reasonable variance so that it has at least SOME sort of timing, so that you can actually learn the mechanics and have some gameplay flow. Something along the lines of instead of a Tankbuster happening every 60s instead it has a 30-90s window where it can happen at best, 30s after the previous one and at worst 90s after the previous one (With timers being able to overlap, so the order in which skills happen can alter based on some skills rolling short timers while others roll longer ones)

In regards to the Tank 'protecting' the party and it feeling weird to the Tank that the party takes so much damage, how do you justify party damage in the current game?

Much of it occurs via AoE's that are indiscriminate against whom is being targeted.

Outside of that, it's generally the occasional attack being sent towards random targets, like an AoE puddle directed towards one of the people in the massive group.

Which makes sense.

But the majority of the damage is still being focused into the Tank, not the party. The tank's the one taking the constant hits. The tank's the one the boss is using their most powerful attacks on. The person who's most in danger, is the Tank (Current game balancing that makes fluff damage irrelevant and TB's not particularly exciting aside)

On a somewhat related note, with the removal of skills like Diversion, DPS will no longer be able to easily control their Enmity generation. Making the Tanks gearing more relevant beyond basic mitigation concerns. They'll need that extra DPS afforded by the higher ilvls to keep up with the DPS. That's dependent on how effective the new Tank Stances are though.

Yeah, but then we're getting back to my original statement where a Tank doesn't much care about getting Tankier from upgrading their gear as much as they care about dealing more damage from upgrading their gear.

Just like the main benefit a Healer is getting from upgrading their gear is... More damage. In this game it's due to damaging skills being used FAR more often than healing ones. In other games it can be due to higher throughput means more downtime (Also, better MP management) allowing for more time spent slinging attacks.

Which is not necessarily the optimal way of implementing things. Where Tanks and Healers don't really care too much about their role specific increases from gear and are much more invested in how much more DPS they get from upgrading their gear. (Which also means that in XIV, the Tank and Healer specific stats (Tenacity and Piety) are pretty much the lowest weighted stats for Tanks and Healers, in favour of Crit/DH/Det, the DPS stats)