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  1. #1
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Razard View Post
    Are you serious? The job that gave us the Hide command and FFXIV is the one doesn't do it justice?
    I am. In the rest of my post I mentioned that this is because it doesn't resemble the other renditions of Bards across other titles, instead their combat mechanics are themed much more around archery than songs and performance.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    Razard's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
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    429
    Character
    Razard Baleth
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikai View Post
    I am. In the rest of my post I mentioned that this is because it doesn't resemble the other renditions of Bards across other titles, instead their combat mechanics are themed much more around archery than songs and performance.
    And what do all those renditions (minus one), have in common?

    Yep, they are all trash.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Razard View Post
    And what do all those renditions (minus one), have in common?

    Yep, they are all trash.
    Job fantasy is considered a major important factor for literally every other job in the game. Machinist needed mechanical adjustments, but they didn't just do that, they added in machine attacks from Final Fantasy VI. Red Mage was designed with Vercure and Verraise not because a heal and raise spell is required for casters, but because a major part of the Red Mage's identity in Final Fantasy is about being a jack of all trades who can attack with swords, cast black magic, and white magic. Blue Mage is quarantined to the masked carnivale content and nothing else specifically because the devs wanted to retain the job fantasy of having all types of gimmicky spells that are op in some instances but useless in others.

    Why is Bard the odd man out who isn't allowed to thrive in the job fantasy of running into battle with nothing but a flute or a harp and using exclusively music to help allies and hurt enemies? Yeah, the support role in ARR was deemed too niche and was cut from the game, but what's wrong with a DPS using music to attack? Deuce does it and she's arguably the most broken character in Type-0 besides maybe Rem abusing Reraise + Summoning.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Player
    Darkpaw's Avatar
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    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ul Dah
    Posts
    470
    Character
    Akio Foxx
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    Why is Bard the odd man out who isn't allowed to thrive in the job fantasy of running into battle with nothing but a flute or a harp and using exclusively music to help allies and hurt enemies? Yeah, the support role in ARR was deemed too niche and was cut from the game, but what's wrong with a DPS using music to attack? Deuce does it and she's arguably the most broken character in Type-0 besides maybe Rem abusing Reraise + Summoning.
    Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

    Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

    This whole thread is just.. wow..
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
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    3,482
    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpaw View Post
    Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

    Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

    This whole thread is just.. wow..
    The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

    They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.
    (1)

  6. #6
    Player
    Darkpaw's Avatar
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    Apr 2018
    Location
    Ul Dah
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    470
    Character
    Akio Foxx
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Raikai View Post
    The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

    They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.
    No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

    Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpaw View Post
    No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

    Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.
    Bard Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
    synonyms: poet, versifier, verse-maker, rhymester, rhymer, sonneteer, lyricist, lyrist, elegist

    Yup, a bow and arrow is definitely what defines a bard
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    3,482
    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpaw View Post
    No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

    Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.
    I worded my post poorly about MCH: I meant, they could keep the theme gunner and just redesign the abilities around gunplay, essentially making it work but keeping the theme the same, but they didn't: Yoshi P even stated that MCH felt more like a gunner than a machinist per se, hence the changes. (and it got me quite surprised because in the beginning of SB I was here in this forum being read to filth for suggesting EXACTLY what they made for MCH: be themed around Edgar's Tools)

    About the BRD, I'm not suggesting either it to be fully song-based, but the scale is turned way more to the archery side, and that is what feels weird. A better thematic balance could be achieved, but alas this is a personal expectation of the job, of course people that enjoy it for what it is at the moment will disagree.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    3,482
    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Razard View Post
    And what do all those renditions (minus one), have in common?

    Yep, they are all trash.

    XIV's Bard could be designed to look like any example of previous bard and be so OP broken that they'd need a nerf. The opposite is true as well.

    A lot of ShB DNC job fantasy is very similar to previous iterations, because you'll... er, dance a lot. But who knows, the job might be trash or really convoluted, or (hopefully) work out flawlessly.

    Gameplay viability has nothing to do with job theme/fantasy.
    (1)