Time to expand a little on my comments about SE needing to hire a healer designer.

[MaraD_]

Implying that Tank and Melee DPS are different.

Technically they are.

Fundamentally "roles" break into 2 primary gameplay designs.
(1) Offensive (win condition)
(2) Defensive (to make it feel less of a numbers game, and add tension in a tug of war)

Further divided by sub roles;
(A) Selfish (high self sustain usually)
(B) Support (good synergy with the team, aiding in numbers/effectiveness)

Lastly, role/sub roles are divided by aesthetics, flavor, and gameplay mechanics; (Strengths and weaknesses apply)
Ranged, at the cost of Cast bars/mobility.
Melee, at the cost of positionals/mobility.
(There are more, such as pets, burst vs sustained, faster paced GCDs, etc)

NIN is a support with positionals, so its odd BRD and MCH dont have equivalents for thier mobility/freedom.
Though one could argue their lack of gap closers and anti pushback, which I'll agree comes pretty close, so its ok. (plus part of their flavor.)


Now, back to the point, tanks are "supposed" to be under the defensive/selfish category.
They are the equivalent of a Selfish Healer, who can only heal themselves (rampart/potent self mitigation).
They lost decent direct healing (while healers lost decent party targeting mitigation) for the sake of doing far more DPS.
Most people see tanks as melee DPS with slight/occasional mitigation.
(Here's where it gets complicaited.)
The reason they arent an Offensive role, isnt because of their mitigation despite being a big reason, but due to how other DPS dont actually raise the tanks DPS to the same levels of other DPS, and due to healers not having propper mitigation tools. For tanks to be primarily an offensive role, they need to be a DPS with enmity control, and no/little mitigation. (other DPS and Healers make up the differences)
They need to do the same damage as the other DPS at the end of the day (or roughly equivalent). While non tanks are the types to support the tanks lack of personal DPS. (Think DNC.) So that tanks are raised to the same DPS level of the other DPS.
Now healers need to have heals better suited to a single target, and heals better suited for raid wide dmg. The person who would get the most use of a strong single target heal (something like aldo, but with a shorter shield timer, so u want to keep it on a single target) is the person who gets hurt more often.
Pretend healers can put a "tank stance" on one person, but cant reapply it to another person for 30seconds. This is why u want a DPS who keeps the focus of the enemy.

TL;DR tanks are currently (in most MMOs) designed as a jack of all trades. They arent fully the defensive role, nor the offensive role. This is because old tanks were more so designed with the defensive role in mind, and to make tanks more appealing to more players, they started trying to make them the "DPS with mitigation" which is technically in the middle, and not an actual DPS. (as explained above)

Being a hybrid melee healer/DPS doesnt mean you're equal to a pure melee DPS.
If you equate them as being the same, apply the same logic to healers as casters, and all ranged as the same function, and melee/ranged/caster DPS as the same role. (consistency)

Yes, there's an obvious lack of general interest for healers coming from the dev team.
They'll go on and on about the intricate changes made to tanks or the ideas behind DPS balance, but soon as it comes to healers, it's a sentence or two about how their healing is more mobile now. It's a little ridiculous.

I agree with this.
If I were to try and redo the classes from the ground up, I'd be hard pressed to give a butt about Physical Ranged play styles. (and more accurately, DPS in general)
But when it comes to tanks and healers, I have tons of interest, with losts of ideas, and also an understanding of which ideas cant work with the other ideas, w/o changing the core of how I wish the game to flow.

One example here, is how they did intend healers to cast DPS spells, but also didnt take that DPS into consideration. The only way to allow GCD DPS, is to have bosses do very little fluff dmg between Tank Busters. But in order to make that considered "difficult" basic healing needs to be very weak, so you would be required to spend multiple GCDs getting them back up after a TB. They made oGCDs mostly for mobility. But here's the problem... You can use oGCDs to replace direct GCD healing. If you do that, what gets interrupted isnt always healing, but actually your DPS. Only in 4man leveling dungeons would tanks take consistent damage, to make up the lack of this dynamic. This is an example of them not understanding the finner elements of defensive roles.

I can easily see all of this, but when it comes to the DPS, i'm much more inclined to make similar mistakes, due to just not caring about the DPS roles as much. I really just dont care about the DPS role, unless they get some more party responsibility. (which then I'd start to care more.)

[Kabooa]

Technically they are.

Sure, on paper you can make this argument.

In practice, tanks are discount melee DPS. Shadowbringers only solidified this further.

[MaraD_]

In practice, tanks are discount melee DPS. Shadowbringers only solidified this further.

And by your logic, SAMs are discount casters.

Its a hybrid. Stop calling grey a "discount black" or "discount white" its intentionally dishonest, as its trying to give a false impression.
We all agree they are heading in that direction. We know thats the general idea behind tanks with SH. but they are still a hybrid even so.

The only reason I feel the need to correct what you say, despite us both understanding what u mean, is that there are plenty who dont understand what u mean, and take it too literal.
As for why I care about that, is because we still have people who dont understand we lack;

Pure Physical Ranged tanks (shield lob equivalents are just hybridization, like SAM being a hybrid caster)
Pure Caster Ranged tanks (PLD is the closest as a hybrid)
Pure Caster Melee tanks (Nothing really comes close, PLDs casts have range on them)
Pure Pet tanks (DRK being closest with a once a 2min pet, or 2.0 ACN/SMN)

Pure Physical Ranged healers
Pure Physical Melee healers
Pure Caster Melee healers

Pure Caster Melee DPS (SAM being the closest as a hyrbid)

And every time I bring up the combinations we lack, they say "nope, we have that, look at this hybrid, or thing completely different than what you mentioned"
(besides the additional "thats not possible in FFXIV because X reasons")
Yoshida even mentioned he was out of ideas for tanks, healers, and melee DPS, and struggled to come up with new ideas. Yet here was a list of what we dont have.
(this includes a lack of full time 2s GCD tanks/healers/ranged(casters too))

So my critique is not personal, and what you said can be taken correctly, but it does give off an impression, due to wanting the dev team to see why people are disappointed in the new "DPS tank" designs, that caused the other issue I feel is never represented as much as the disdain for "DPS tanks" thats currently decently represented.

[Kabooa]

The only reason I feel the need to correct what you say, despite us both understanding what u mean, is that there are plenty who dont understand what u mean, and take it too literal.

Ok.

That's fair.

[Deceptus]

snip

And you can go into a more hot (dot) style / channel based healers and dps casters as well.

But I don't know if this engine with it's terrible netcode could support it.

[MaraD_]

And you can go into a more hot (dot) style / channel based healers and dps casters as well.

But I don't know if this engine with it's terrible netcode could support it.

Oh yeah I agree. I just brought up the more basic obvious ones, based on what we currently already have. GNB will essentially be "more of the same" while SE says they were out of ideas.
I'm like, but... you already are taking ideas from other jobs, why not the ideas you havent used for a tank yet?!

(On a side note, as far as im aware, there is no MMO that has EoTs. We have HoTs, and DoTs, but never enmity. Have a tick of enmity every 3 seconds, oGCD. The closest thing is "the next actions have increased enmity for X seconds, but thats like lagarsse or rampart or berserk. Its not a pure effect, that ticks every server tick.) (EDIT: forgot to also mention SoT, "Shields" that proc a small Hp shield every 3 seconds. they could stack, or they dont have to, doesnt matter, but essentially equate HoT anyways)

Channeled abilities already exist on PLD, SCH, and AST, but arent the focus of the jobs. (IMO a channeled ability should be different from casting, in that you cant swift cast them, but you can use oGCDs durring them)
Of course SCH/SMN was designed as the DoT healer/casters. So its not so much they didnt make them, but so much as they made too many jobs with DoTs, and then took away most of them, or watered them down too much. Since they did it to help let people get full DoTs up on bosses in 24mans, they just need to do the sensible thing, and make certain jobs do DoTs, rather than EVERY job have a DoT. (a self buff that raises damage dealt would functionally add the same amount of complexity as a DoT.)

But yeah, I made a full list of all the ways in which u can functionally make a player "more tanky" in an MMO (not just FFXIV, as some wouldnt work with the current system) I can throw it up later.
This sort of logic can be applied to healers and DPS, indirectly. (I put more tanky in quotes, since its a bit hard to summarize in 1 word, due to how many different ways i came up with, that are rather different than what we have now)

EDIT: copied from a list I made. (Some of these are not possible for FFXIV without changes!)

...Increased Max HP (Thrill of Battle)
...Temporary HP (a Shield made of HP. Aldo, etc)
...Direct HP restoration (Small to large self heals. Clemency/Equillibrium, etc)
...Indirect HP restoration (Passive HP regeneration, or attached to other actions. Sole Survivor)
...HP absorption (Heals based on damage done. Soul Eater, Abyssal Drain, etc.)
...Increasing the amount of HP that is restored. (Spells/potions/actions heal for more. Convalescence)
...HP Shields in the above actions (Replace the word HP with HP Shield instead.)
...Alternate buff in above actions (Replace the word HP with a buff instead, buff being a word to represent alternatives below)
...Raising your defense to a/all physical damage. (weapon types included.) (Awareness)
...Lowering an enemies physical damage, on you, or over all. (Foresight/Raw Intuition)
...Magic defense to a/all types of magical dmg, in place of the 2 above physical examples. (Dark Mind)
...redirecting damage (damage a pet, ally, or alternative resource like MP/mana) (Cover) (This is the one with the most versatility, but has practically no examples of in FFXIV)
...Proc/Trigger based versions of the above types (such as a chance to nullify 100% dmg taken, like "Evasion/Stuns" or a chance of a lower amount of enemy dmg like parry/blocks, or a chance to absorb. Conditions met to trigger an effect on the list.)
...non stat avoidance (such as kiting or untargetability)
...Being the target of other allies heals/shields/buffs grants rewards to those allies resources. (Example, being healed reduces, or removes the cost of that heal.)

Right now SE tries to give a bit of everything to tanks, rather than making each tank built entirely around one of these themes (with a LITTLE bit of supplements from maybe another 1-3 on the list)

EDIT #2
Right now, DPS's main role is damage, and Healers main role is healing.
Healers are less about mitigation than healing in this game, but essentially could use any of the things on the tanky list, to help keep groups alive, in some shape or form.

Because of this, healers and DPS are better suited to be distinctive in how their individual gameplay functions, rather than how their damage/healing can effect HP differently.
(Tanks dont have to effect their HP, defense, magic defense, or evasion/blocking/parrying, in order to mitigate, so thats why the prior list wasnt about gameplay functions to do those very actions.)
A tank/healer/DPS can press a single button that directly does the action they need, or it can be a bit more complex, where a button sets up the next button, or a series of buttons or trades.
The only way the above list can indirectly influence how a DPS is built, is if a DPS has to damage things other HP. Such as attacking the enemies ways of mitigating. (which the above list demonstrates every way I can think of on a fundamental level)