Why was Living Dead not removed?

[WhyAmIHere]

Out of curiosity, have you ever been server ticked on a last second heal? You mention the duration, I think if you're really trying to maximize you would push it to the limits, but I'm curious if say - you got a benediction at 1 sec left - is it likely to not count as a heal in time?

not the person the question was directed at but yes, I have. It's so disheartening to hear the healer exclaim "but i was healing you!" only to get screwed over because of my own skill.

[DemonicNeko]

I do really like how this post has passed on so much useful info. I hope the devs see it and understand we are not happy with LD. Hope maybe 5.1 we could see a rework of it. I really like the idea of WD preventing us the ability to be healed by healers. Yet we gain a 75% life steal buff. Would also say we should be untargetable by party members while in this new WD. So healers do not waste mp healing them selves. While in a panic trying to heal us.

[Launched]

Wait, so are you a WAR main like the side bar says or a DRK main? Hmmmm.

Neither, I'm the PLD in a PLD+DRK group.

Holmgang is a pain outside of statics too. I would trust random healers to heal me through that as much as I'd trust them to heal Living Dead. I've died plenty of times in O12N because a healer has left me at half HP and then never healed me after Holmganging a tankbuster. Holmgang and Living Dead are both last resorts to me in random groups, Hallowed is the only one I'd actually want to use.

When it comes to the other differences (duration, cooldown etc.) I think LD and Holmgang both had their own advantages and disadvantages in HW/SB. LD's duration and ability to cast without being rooted/in melee let it work on mechanics that Holmgang couldn't, and Holmgang's cooldown let it work on mechanics that LD wasn't up for. I also think that the Stormblood skills made Holmgang less valuable (but still good). When it comes to regular tankbusters, why care about using Holmgang to drop to 1hp when you can just combine Sheltron/Intervention+TBN in a PLD+DRK group to safely survive a lot of them? That's going to be an even bigger thing in Shadowbringers with all tanks able to share their low cooldown skills like that.

If SE thinks its such a great ultimate then remove the death penalty lengthen the timer... At least that way DRKs might get one usage out of it per fight outside..

If you want Hallowed Ground you could always play PLD. It's the best tank anyway.

[Mycow8me]

Until I can use this skill and only die from damage instead of a countdown timer, I wont be happy with it. Period.

[Danelo]

The death penalty of LD is a punishment far beyond anything the other tanks experience. The benefit(s) of LD are not so great they deserve a lengthy recast and a "heal to total you health pool or die" mechanic. I don't want holmgang or hallowed ground (although when I want or I need those respective abilities I just switch to those jobs) but I don't think it's too much to ask of SE to either fix LD or start over and create something new.

Of course you need faith that your healer will heal you (hence the name) BUT LD has mechanics beyond that. Unlike hg you can't be put at half hp and see if you make it past a raid wide AOE. It's all or nothing. It's a drain on resources considering only one of the healers (the least popular one for 4.x) has an ability suited for dealing with this mechanic (whm benediction). No one wants to use it and no one want to heal it.

If you like it so much, we can swap. Just to warn you, since you seem to not know, it's a crap ability. Overly punishing mechanic for little benefit when simply adjusting the CD timer would be sufficient to address it's benefits (the few that it has). 9 seconds of invul, IF your healer isn't alert and uses benediction (if you have that healer) too early or over-heals not allowing you to go into WD before it clears. If that all works out then great but now your healers have to heal the full value of DRKs hp pool in 9 seconds before you die (realistically it's almost always not the full 9 seconds value the healers are working on topping you off). It's a true gamble not knowing if the timer is going to kill you. I'd much rather be killed by the boss than the timer to echo what a previous poster said.

If SE wants to make this skill work then homogenize healers and give them all a resource to deal with this mechanic instead of trying to make faux-synergy between DRK and WHM. While I'm not a fan of homogenization, I'm even less a fan of dying to the countdown timer of a poor ultimate.

[DemonicNeko]

The death penalty of LD is a punishment far beyond anything the other tanks experience. The benefit(s) of LD are not so great they deserve a lengthy recast and a "heal to total you health pool or die" mechanic. I don't want holmgang or hallowed ground (although when I want or I need those respective abilities I just switch to those jobs) but I don't think it's too much to ask of SE to either fix LD or start over and create something new.

Of course you need faith that your healer will heal you (hence the name) BUT LD has mechanics beyond that. Unlike hg you can't be put at half hp and see if you make it past a raid wide AOE. It's all or nothing. It's a drain on resources considering only one of the healers (the least popular one for 4.x) has an ability suited for dealing with this mechanic (whm benediction). No one wants to use it and no one want to heal it.

If you like it so much, we can swap. Just to warn you, since you seem to not know, it's a crap ability. Overly punishing mechanic for little benefit when simply adjusting the CD timer would be sufficient to address it's benefits (the few that it has). 9 seconds of invul, IF your healer isn't alert and uses benediction (if you have that healer) too early or over-heals not allowing you to go into WD before it clears. If that all works out then great but now your healers have to heal the full value of DRKs hp pool in 9 seconds before you die (realistically it's almost always not the full 9 seconds value the healers are working on topping you off). It's a true gamble not knowing if the timer is going to kill you. I'd much rather be killed by the boss than the timer to echo what a previous poster said.

If SE wants to make this skill work then homogenize healers and give them all a resource to deal with this mechanic instead of trying to make faux-synergy between DRK and WHM. While I'm not a fan of homogenization, I'm even less a fan of dying to the countdown timer of a poor ultimate.

Well from everything I have seen. We might be barking up the wrong tree with this. The previews I have seen. They have broke white Mage. As if they are planning to put Dark Knights with White Mages together. They seem to have stupidly strong heals and unlimited MP. While the other healers have been gutted badly and their healing/shields are on the weak side. On top of having problems with MP. Note I am not hating on WHM. I know the numbers might change before launch. I am just saying that players should be able to chose what healer that are wanting to play. From the massive changes to SCH/AST. It feels like this expansion people will be forced into WHM. Which would be a big reason why they did not touch LD/WD. As much as we might hate it. I feel because we will be taking WHM into progression. We will just have to live with it.

[Danelo]

Eh, barking up the wrong tree? Maybe. So much for balancing the healers. All the same, if that is where they are going with it then it's a poorly thought out idea. Going forward whm inevitably won't be in the pug when you need them and that's were this mechanic kills on a regular basis. Even if there was a whm in your comp everytime that's only part of my issue with the mechanic. Mainly that there are no visual indicators for LD and WD in case all the bells and whistles from the macro don't work (they regularly don't).

And while I'd love to have a Benediction always available to the group, especially for LD, I truly hate abilities for which a job always has to be brought. It would be a good example of bad synergy should DRK become a preferred tank in Shb meta. Just half the healing requirement and add obvious onscreen indicators. Done. All healers could be equally successful with cleansing WD. I could get on board with that assuming the indicators would be clear enough whether on screen graphic or party list graphic or both.

[DemonicNeko]

Eh, barking up the wrong tree? Maybe. So much for balancing the healers. All the same, if that is where they are going with it then it's a poorly thought out idea. Going forward whm inevitably won't be in the pug when you need them and that's were this mechanic kills on a regular basis. Even if there was a whm in your comp everytime that's only part of my issue with the mechanic. Mainly that there are no visual indicators for LD and WD in case all the bells and whistles from the macro don't work (they regularly don't).

And while I'd love to have a Benediction always available to the group, especially for LD, I truly hate abilities for which a job always has to be brought. It would be a good example of bad synergy should DRK become a preferred tank in Shb meta. Just half the healing requirement and add obvious onscreen indicators. Done. All healers could be equally successful with cleansing WD. I could get on board with that assuming the indicators would be clear enough whether on screen graphic or party list graphic or both.

I am with you on this. Let not forget when a macro does work. The healer blows their mp while you are in LD stance and not WD where you are needing the heals. If you do not enter into WD then the ability was wasted. It you do it pretty much death with out Benediction. The idea of the healers being forced into a WHM heavy meta also sickens me. As people should be allowed to play any healer they want. Now that I have had more time to think about the changes of Dark Knight. The changes we got where not what we where asking for. Not what we wanted. As well as something that could have put into 3.3 easy. The way they where talking made it sound like we where going get the MCH style of rework. Not this half ass. Semi poor design rework.

Honestly I am really debating if GNB and DNC was needed in the game right now. I am really feeling that SHB should have done a major rework for most of the classes and rebalancing for the rest. As it pretty clear right now that they can not seem to get tanks and healer balance down correctly. The devs seem to only listen to some of the things we are saying and ignore the rest. The Devs judge every tank ult by Hollowed Grounds power level. The community who does the end game content judges the ults by Holmgang cool down. There clearly a big miss communication between the devs and the players.

As cool as it is this post has gone hot. It is meaningless unless the devs notice it. Which I do not think they will. So our cries out for change will follow on deaf ears. Making me super sad.

[Voidedge_Ragna]

As a healer and tank who played all 3 healers and tanks.

Both WD and Holm need to be communicated, WD i can see coming and the active time is the same.

If Holm is used in a large dungeon pull the warwill soak all the aoe dmg which then very quickly becomes a big punishment.

WD enables movement but requires the full focus or atleast awareness.

Most of those skills are pre communicated moves to take tank buster in which case WD works really good.

A lot of War use Holm to early and a 6 sec window is not long and since a lot of healers react on dmg and not the cast bar of potential dmg ... means you will get 1-2 gcd in.

Benediction at 7-9 of walking dead turns it into hallowed ground ... at the cost of the benediction.

Its about knowing skillz and looking at stat bars ... if your healer doesnt know LD chances are he would've missed tge critical heal after holm.

And wars feel just as helpless sitting at 1 hp while bound if the holm was not planned the heals of a war likely were used or not up so yea.

[DemonicNeko]

As a healer and tank who played all 3 healers and tanks.

Both WD and Holm need to be communicated, WD i can see coming and the active time is the same.

If Holm is used in a large dungeon pull the warwill soak all the aoe dmg which then very quickly becomes a big punishment.

WD enables movement but requires the full focus or atleast awareness.

Most of those skills are pre communicated moves to take tank buster in which case WD works really good.

A lot of War use Holm to early and a 6 sec window is not long and since a lot of healers react on dmg and not the cast bar of potential dmg ... means you will get 1-2 gcd in.

Benediction at 7-9 of walking dead turns it into hallowed ground ... at the cost of the benediction.

Its about knowing skillz and looking at stat bars ... if your healer doesnt know LD chances are he would've missed tge critical heal after holm.

And wars feel just as helpless sitting at 1 hp while bound if the holm was not planned the heals of a war likely were used or not up so yea.

Wars will no longer bound and no longer need a target. So they can move out of aoe. Pretty big buff for Holm.