GIVE SCHOLAR BANE AND FIX ART OF WAR MP AND WE'LL BE FINE

[Eloah]

What of your post is even directed to me? I play SCH as an offhand and currently hold the number 1 healer combined DPS in the world across all Extremes. Not much, but I do know the class in depth. Now, let's first look at what you actually have to say.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I said, so I won't respond to it. Except for the fact that when you factor in Chain Strategem and Fey Wind opener and potential reopeners, SCH is way above WHM DPS wise. Not only this, but due to the nature of both AST and SCH OGCD healing in the current state, they also just bring a lot more synergy and therefore healer DPS.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

First off, why do I need to know your "number 1 in the world"? Not saying you aren't, but why is that relevant. Second, and this is directed to the guy who quoted me prior and you for this post. I said nothing about SCHs DPS. Alls I said was they were top tier but the raid data shows us it's not a massive advantage over the other healers. And then in a later paragraph, that healers have the same problem tanks have. With only 3 healers one is always guaranteed a slot, that one just so happens to be SCH. The only thing I said about their DPS was what type it was, that's all.

And in regards to Energy Drain, I'm not sure if you are just confused, but you repeated the wrong info again. ED is an oGCD skill, and doesn't trigger the GCD. Ruin II is a GCD skill and does trigger it. Do you see the issue now. And while we don't know if we need to sink anymore, but we will because of eventual dated content, we don't even have the option. Our only choice is to over heal, which isnt good.

[Starflake]

First off, why do I need to know your "number 1 in the world"? Not saying you aren't, but why is that relevant. Second, and this is directed to the guy who quoted me prior and you for this post. I said nothing about SCHs DPS. Alls I said was they were top tier but the raid data shows us it's not a massive advantage over the other healers. And then in a later paragraph, that healers have the same problem tanks have. With only 3 healers one is always guaranteed a slot, that one just so happens to be SCH. The only thing I said about their DPS was what type it was, that's all.

And in regards to Energy Drain, I'm not sure if you are just confused, but you repeated the wrong info again. ED is an oGCD skill, and doesn't trigger the GCD. Ruin II is a GCD skill and does trigger it. Do you see the issue now. And while we don't know if we need to sink anymore, but we will because of eventual dated content, we don't even have the option. Our only choice is to over heal, which isnt good.

Because you said "Do YoU GuYs EveN MaiN HeAleRs?!?
I also have no idea why you are strawmanning me. Where exactly did I claim that ED is not an oGCD? Like are you even reading, friend? I am literaly saying that Ruin II is an oGCD that triggers the GCD. Not ED. And you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to current balance of healer DPS. On average an equally skilled SCH or AST will have 500-800 rDPS more on top of doing more healer DPS too in case of an AST/SCH combo. You don't seem to factor in their raid utility.
As a matter of fact WHM is currently even the lowest DPS all across the board in savage https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/25#class=Healers

Throw on top that it has no rDPS at all, I don't know what you are talking about when you say that the Raid data shows that it's not at a big disadvantage. This is literally what you said:
"Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this." It's slightly behind AST rDPS wide on an equal skill floor.

I don't think you have any idea on how to actually read healer rDPS and are just looking at it in a simplistic way.
As for the sink in outdated content. How is that really that relevant again though? And even in outdated content, 2 times Soil and one excog and or Indom will always be useful. It's just not a good argument for ED.

[Knoahl]

Because you said "Do YoU GuYs EveN MaiN HeAleRs?!?

He didn't say that, he said you don't main Scholar do you? He was implying you were a bit out of touch with how Scholar functions, not healers in general, unless I missed that, feel free to correct me if I did. /shrug

back on topic I don't think we will ever get a decent DoT class/HoT class or improved healing until DoT's and HoT's become more like they should work in other mmos as they are so wierd and archaic in this... everything working off such a slow server tick. Losing CD's like Lustrate or benediction because of that, and the reason pvp/mobility feels so bad in this game.

[Starflake]

He didn't say that, he said you don't main Scholar do you? He was implying you were a bit out of touch with how Scholar functions, not healers in general, unless I missed that, feel free to correct me if I did. /shrug

back on topic I don't think we will ever get a decent DoT class/HoT class or improved healing until DoT's and HoT's become more like they should work in other mmos as they are so wierd and archaic in this... everything working off such a slow server tick. Losing CD's like Lustrate or benediction because of that, and the reason pvp/mobility feels so bad in this game.

It was a pedantic statement regardless. "You guys don't main SCH do you." It's to completely dismiss players as incompetent and ignorant by asking this rethorical question. No need for us to keep hammering on this point though.
We should indeed focus on either getting a dot + bane back or Shadow Flare. ED is not a good choice at all with the current healer kit we have. It would be absolutely insane to not use Soil every 30 seconds. That's already 2 stacks! Then you can just throw an Excog on there, use it as an Indom. Lustrate probably not that useful. But due to the powerful nature of our stack management and our incredibly strong oGCD heals, not only are you doing your tanks a favour, but also your co healer by openening up much more space for them to DPS as well.

[Eloah]

It was a pedantic statement regardless. "You guys don't main SCH do you." It's to completely dismiss players as incompetent and ignorant by asking this rethorical question. No need for us to keep hammering on this point though.
We should indeed focus on either getting a dot + bane back or Shadow Flare. ED is not a good choice at all with the current healer kit we have. It would be absolutely insane to not use Soil every 30 seconds. That's already 2 stacks! Then you can just throw an Excog on there, use it as an Indom. Lustrate probably not that useful. But due to the powerful nature of our stack management and our incredibly strong oGCD heals, not only are you doing your tanks a favour, but also your co healer by openening up much more space for them to DPS as well.

You're right it probably was a pedantic statement, but I was right. And unless ShB requires a massive amount of healing, which the media footage shows might not be the case, but unless damage spikes to the extreme, why would you over heal. That's the biggest issue for healers, if they have nothing to heal, what do they do. And for SCH that leads to the Energy Drain issue.

Where exactly did I claim that ED is not an oGCD? Like are you even reading, friend? I am literaly saying that Ruin II is an oGCD that triggers the GCD. Not ED.

Why do you keep saying Ruin 2 is an oGCD skill. Ruin 2 is a GCD spell just like Ruin. It's just instant cast. And as far as you saying it here is your quote.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

Look I can't even remember the main reason I added you to the original post, it was probably to point out your mistake about ED and Ruin 2, since in the original you said ED is 50 potency less than Ruin 2, so why use it. The simplest example I could probably give would be that ED is like the SCH equivalent of WHMs Assize, and SCHs wanna use it whenever they can to get rid of their excess Aetherflow once the skill is off CD. That's why ED was used to weave in extra damage. It never even competed with Ruin 2, because ED doesn't trigger the GCD.

And I do know how to read rDPS. But you'll notice when I mentioned the healers DPS, I never had the little r in front. When I mentioned raids I just stated SCH was on top, but not my an overwhelming margin. But when I mentioned the healer DPS, I was just referring to their individual DPS their pDPS, which has basically remained the same, WHM has the best burst DPS. But that's the issue, and why SE did what they did. Apparently, a healer healing is viewed as a bad thing, who would've thought.

But look, I'm out, I can't keep driving myself crazy with every little detail of these changes. They are happening whether I like them or not.

Good day to you all.

[dezzmont]

But look, I'm out, I can't keep driving myself crazy with every little detail of these changes. They are happening whether I like them or not.

I want to actually really praise you for:

1: Coming to understand why even if you think the changes are bad that there clearly were reasons to be unhappy with the status quo, which takes a lot of empathy. Realizing that even though you and someone else have different goals and desires but recognizing the validity of their needs even if it works cross purposes to your own is a big honkin deal. Hopefully we can find a way for everyone to win!

2: Recognizing that fixating on bad things in the future that you aren't 100% sure are happening and can't realistically affect any more than you already have is an unhealthy mental state to fixate on and try to stay in. The internet has a way of making you addicted to anger and outrage and feeling terrible about things and pulling yourself out of that cognitive lotus eater trap is a good thing.

People need to be way healthier about doing both those things, because it doesn't mean you are giving up on what you believe, saying someone else is right, or 'lost.' It just means you are showing that you have a healthy relationship with frustration rather than an addictive one, and while you shouldn't expect a gold star for that, it really should be recognized more this is the healthy attitude!

[Starflake]

You're right it probably was a pedantic statement, but I was right. And unless ShB requires a massive amount of healing, which the media footage shows might not be the case, but unless damage spikes to the extreme, why would you over heal. That's the biggest issue for healers, if they have nothing to heal, what do they do. And for SCH that leads to the Energy Drain issue.

Why do you keep saying Ruin 2 is an oGCD skill. Ruin 2 is a GCD spell just like Ruin. It's just instant cast. And as far as you saying it here is your quote.

Look I can't even remember the main reason I added you to the original post, it was probably to point out your mistake about ED and Ruin 2, since in the original you said ED is 50 potency less than Ruin 2, so why use it. The simplest example I could probably give would be that ED is like the SCH equivalent of WHMs Assize, and SCHs wanna use it whenever they can to get rid of their excess Aetherflow once the skill is off CD. That's why ED was used to weave in extra damage. It never even competed with Ruin 2, because ED doesn't trigger the GCD.

And I do know how to read rDPS. But you'll notice when I mentioned the healers DPS, I never had the little r in front. When I mentioned raids I just stated SCH was on top, but not my an overwhelming margin. But when I mentioned the healer DPS, I was just referring to their individual DPS their pDPS, which has basically remained the same, WHM has the best burst DPS. But that's the issue, and why SE did what they did. Apparently, a healer healing is viewed as a bad thing, who would've thought.

But look, I'm out, I can't keep driving myself crazy with every little detail of these changes. They are happening whether I like them or not.

Good day to you all.

I was always under the impression that whichever skill you can use instantly after a GCD is an oGCD. You have oGCDS that trigger the GCD like Ruin II or you have oGCDs that you weave inbetween skills like ED. I don't understand why you must keep repeating this point while it's very clear that I understand what Ruin II does. I literally say it triggers the GCD. You're' just trying to make out that you are more knowledable.

You literally quoted and put in Bold something that has nothing to do with ED, while claiming I said ED isn't an oGCD, hello? When I said that Ruin II is 50 potency more, I meant it for movement purposes as I already explained that using ED for any other reason in our current toolkit would be the biggest waste of a stack SCH has to offer. You are simply taking everything out of context and painting yourself as the knowledable guy while conveniently ignoring all the other poipnts I makde.
There is no point in arguing in anything but rDPS when it comes to healer balance. I don't understand why you think it's a good idea to think in terms of raw DPS. It makes no sense at all. It holds zero value in healer balances changes.

My whole point of the original post is that ED would be the most ponitless spender out of all that we have now in SHB (as it stands). You tried to make out I don't understand SCH by claiming I don't know that ED is an oGCD and that Ruin II is one as well. This is simply a fabrication of you or a misunderstanding. So I'm going to put it here again, to explain it very carefully how ED should not be part of the toolkit anymore:
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1. With the way our current healer kit is designed, you don't want to use Aetherflow on ED. There is no real argument over MP as Lucid is on a 1 min CD and the MP regen it was estimated is 800MP per tick while the natural regen is like 200 I believe. We now have a very strong healing skill in Soil. A 500 potency heal total with 10% shielding. With the nerf to Embrace, you must certainly want to use this skill as much as you can. You can use it twice per minute. You then have one stack to either use on Indom, Excog or Lustrate. You can guarantee crits on these skills. Using it on these spenders will enable your co healer to DPS way more instead of using it on a 150 potency move that gives MP back you most likely won't need anyway.

2. Ruin II is 50 more potency than Energy Drain. Since you don't want to use Energy Drain as a stack spender, the argument you can make for it is using is as a mobility kind of thing. But since Ruin II is more potent you want to use that, regardless of it triggering the GCD as you're moving you would have most likely clipped regardless. Energy Drain was useful to weave Miasma II with, but since we don't have that either, there is no point. You could argue that it's a spender for let's say Broil III - Ruin II and then Enegergy drain for movement. But then we go back to point 1 and see that almost certainly you would have more rDPS through your healer with your healing kit used instead.

3. The only good argument you can give is that Fey Dissipation is in a bit of a weird spot because of it. Because it will replenish your stacks, but are you going to use it on more healing? How much overkill will that be? No idea. We don't know how healing will be. They should just rework that skill now.
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That's pretty much it. Give up on ED as far as I'm concerned and give SCH back the 30 second Shadow Flare on the GCD. Or give them an oGCD that does not trigger the GCD every 30 sec to 1 min that doesn't break the DPS output between healers.

[Eloah]

Or give them an oGCD that does not trigger the GCD

Look I'm not contesting anything, cause I said I'm out. But I'm just curious how the above statement makes sense. That's all I'm asking, how does using an oGCD skill activate the GCD. It doesn't even have to be you who answers. Anyone, anyone at all, tell me how the statement makes sense. Honestly, maybe I am missing something.

[Truen]

First off, why do I need to know your "number 1 in the world"? Not saying you aren't, but why is that relevant.

It's relevant b/c clearly the opinion of such an accomplished SCH should be considered--especially over that of some trolling WHM trying to hijack a SCH thread. Yoshi-P's SCH changes are HORRIBLE and people are right to be upset. People have sunk hundreds upon hundreds of hours into a job that's been hacked to pieces.

[Eloah]

It's relevant b/c clearly the opinion of such an accomplished SCH should be considered--especially over that of some trolling WHM trying to hijack a SCH thread. Yoshi-P's SCH changes are HORRIBLE and people are right to be upset. People have sunk hundreds upon hundreds of hours into a job that's been hacked to pieces.

I'm not the WHM in that situation, am I? Cause I barely touch that job outside of leveling it for the achievements.