GIVE SCHOLAR BANE AND FIX ART OF WAR MP AND WE'LL BE FINE

[Eloah]

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You guys don't main SCH do you.

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

And on the subject of skills and DPS. SCHs MP management could have been considered broken in ARR and HW, but that was fixed in SB. And SCHs had higher MP cost for spells, justifying the continous MP gains.

As for the skills we are losing, most of them are a part of Arcanist for the SCH kit, not SMN. We aren't losing them, but Resurrection and Physick are for SCH, but SMN still has them. Energy Drain and the poison spells fit more in line with SCHs lore not SMNs. SMN rarely used ED. And as for the ED, Ruin 2 thing that was mentioned. ED is an oGCD ability, not a GCD spell like Ruin 2. So it's not the potency that's importsnt, but the weaving. Plus ED was an Aetherflow sink when they needed to be spent. The MP regen was nice, but that's not why SCH want the skill back.

Also please be aware, that SCHs only have high sustained DPS, not high burst DPS. Not to mention SCH works well because its kit is more unified than the other two healers. Plus to add insult to injury I guess. The healers have the same issue the tanks do/did. With only three, one is always guaranteed a spot. That's another reason people wanted another healer, for the balance; since four healers guarantee a spot.

[dezzmont]

Buffing is a useful tool, to be sure, but its hard to buff other classes to match SCH because the reasons SCH was strong were more it was broadly great at everything, rather than being way too amazing comparatively at something. Like SCH didn't have fantastic healing output, but the way it healed was really helpful (mostly via oGCDs or automatic functions), and so just making another healer a stronger healer doesn't matter. WHM could have its potency buffed, but you would need to buff potency a LOT to make up for how it will need to entirely stop attacking any time it wants to use a non-oGCD heal, which it has to because its oGCD heals are very strong but limited in number.

This is a classic example of why that whole 'buffs over nerfs' mentality falls apart in real game designs. Sometimes buffing other things up to match why something is overpreforming pushes your game into silly places, compared to relatively tame potency and DPS nerfs on something. That doesn't mean the way they did SCH was good, just that it was reasonable they didn't fix the problem by doing something silly like creating a 500 potency stonega or something. Like to make up the DPS shortfall while accounting for the fact WHMs may need to heal 1 in every 5 casts, you would need to add 4000 potency per minute to the WHM, which would be... a bit much and would have extreme ramifications for things like TA windows and downtime DPS, or phases where you need to do a DPS race.

Specifically, I DO agree SCH lost a bit of its identity by losing offensive weaving, and they definitely should retool something to reintroduce it back into the kit without meaningfully increasing its potency per minute. It was legitimately fun and made the class very active. WHM is rather laid back, and Astro is very reactive. Keeps playstyles on healers versatile, and they definitely homogenized offense a LOT to the point if healing isn't reactive and tactical (AKA: They just have you spam physic instead of spamming broil) I would say healing will become VERY boring.

The ARR beta was sorta a different beast, and ARR was a very unique and unprecedented thing. However, MMOs really live or die on their ability to keep content novel as long as possible, so as to maximize the time they can spend without releasing new content without making it seem like there is a 'content drought.' How would you realistically test healers on a PTR without having players throw them at raid bosses and dungeons endgame multiple times, which would essentially be releasing the expansion way early?

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

It is very clever that you purely focused on the fact their DPS isn't THAT much higher while ignoring the core issue that the top DPS job shouldn't also have as much utility as the SCH does. It fundamentally does not deserve to be the top DPS job because it brings many other benefits to the table (some extreme) that overshadow other healers, the fact it isn't significantly higher DPS than the other jobs isn't the point.

Again, it isn't that SCH is blowing everyone out of the water potency wise. It is that SCH is SLIGHTLY better at EVERYTHING (and significantly better at specific things) than the other healers besides raid DPS. To fix that, you need to remove a strength from the SCH, and DPS is a super obvious choice because making the SCH worse at oGCD healing doesn't... work due to the fairy existing.

As to MP: Mp costs on SCH are a joke. Seriously go in and test how much healing you can output with your MP. Like just stand and cast spells until you run out. It is 22 for Succor and Adloquium, roughly, before you have to start waiting 1-2 extra seconds per-cast, and you go infinite and mana positive on physic.

When have you ever needed to cast 22 succors or aqloquium in a row? The job, effectively, has infinite mana.

I am not saying the job needs to be utterly gutted. But heck no it did not need nor deserve energy drain, and I know of no-non SCH healer comfortable with the state of SCH. SCH is my main healer (though I don't main healer, healer is my favorite MMO role, but healing in FFXIV is... very different than healing in most MMOs) and when I play it I kinda feel gross because its so obvious how unnecessary how many tools it has. Like I don't need eye for an eye on everyone, a magic resist AOE, heal increase AOE, an AOE heal on an oGCD with no resource cost, a superior regen if I just macro correctly, the ability to instantly abort a DPS spell preemptively to use aetherflow as an emergency heal, infinite mana compared to the Astro's very limited pool, AND top DPS. Like... why?

This implication that it doesn't deserve nerfs and that at most other jobs should be buffed (How, exactly, would one go about effectively doing that without getting really wacky? It is hard to buff jobs to be competitive in an environment like FFXIV healing where your main goal is to minimize the primary point of differentiation between the jobs outside of DPS) just because Scholar's supremacy in one domain is slight is very silly and somewhat intellectually dishonest. This and the screaming 'I don't like you Yoshi' thread, really make it hard to empathize with the things that people SHOULD be sad SCH lost, like satisfying, non-complex, and non-toxic rotational weaving that should have been moved somewhere else. Like that was a major SCH theme, it was nice to basically always double cast your DOT and to double cast broil and energy drain, even though it wasn't difficult it just FELT good.

Like I WANT to feel bad for scholars who legitimately lost some job identity in terms of mechanics but the reaction of SCHs makes it really hard to not go celebrate with all the WHMs that SCH is now finally behind them in hypothetical potency over time.

You guys don't main SCH do you.

I main Culinarian~

[Limonia]

About Energy Drain... I don't know if I'm just really unlucky, but I've had so many SCH co-healers (or also just reading about those) that only ever used Aetherflow for Energy Drain, even though an Indomitability would have been really, really great in some moments. But it costs MP and dps, so they don't use it.

So in that regard I'm happy that there is no dps spell that can be used with Aetherflow stacks anymore. Even though I actually really liked using Energy Drain myself.
BUT they could have made it similar to WHM lilies. If you use 3 stacks you can use an oGCD attack with a 60s cd or something like that maybe. Wouldn't help with having to use the stacks for overhealing, but I don't know any other solution to make those bad SCH help healing a little more than making Aetherflow just for healing.

I'm actually even looking forward to being able to use Indomitability and Sacred Soil and so on without having a bad conscience because I'm losing dps right now. ^^

[Starflake]

You guys don't main SCH do you.

Look I'll be the first to say that SCH was top tier, but it's place wasn't so much above WHM or AST; the parsings from the raid communities show this. Not to mention some things are more dependent on player skill over potential raw power. But it's better to raise the other jobs up instead of knocking one down. They tried this when SB released and we see how that went; it's looking like the ShB might be the same.

And on the subject of skills and DPS. SCHs MP management could have been considered broken in ARR and HW, but that was fixed in SB. And SCHs had higher MP cost for spells, justifying the continous MP gains.

As for the skills we are losing, most of them are a part of Arcanist for the SCH kit, not SMN. We aren't losing them, but Resurrection and Physick are for SCH, but SMN still has them. Energy Drain and the poison spells fit more in line with SCHs lore not SMNs. SMN rarely used ED. And as for the ED, Ruin 2 thing that was mentioned. ED is an oGCD ability, not a GCD spell like Ruin 2. So it's not the potency that's importsnt, but the weaving. Plus ED was an Aetherflow sink when they needed to be spent. The MP regen was nice, but that's not why SCH want the skill back.

Also please be aware, that SCHs only have high sustained DPS, not high burst DPS. Not to mention SCH works well because its kit is more unified than the other two healers. Plus to add insult to injury I guess. The healers have the same issue the tanks do/did. With only three, one is always guaranteed a spot. That's another reason people wanted another healer, for the balance; since four healers guarantee a spot.

What of your post is even directed to me? I play SCH as an offhand and currently hold the number 1 healer combined DPS in the world across all Extremes. Not much, but I do know the class in depth. Now, let's first look at what you actually have to say.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I said, so I won't respond to it. Except for the fact that when you factor in Chain Strategem and Fey Wind opener and potential reopeners, SCH is way above WHM DPS wise. Not only this, but due to the nature of both AST and SCH OGCD healing in the current state, they also just bring a lot more synergy and therefore healer DPS.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

While we're at it, give WHM back Aero III. I'll be so upset if SCH gets Bane but WHM doesn't get Aero III back.

[Starflake]

While we're at it, give WHM back Aero III. I'll be so upset if SCH gets Bane but WHM doesn't get Aero III back.

They have Assize, Holy and their aoe 900 potency nuke with diminishing returns. Asking for Aero III and getting upset if SCH gets something more than their 150 potency 800MP skill lmfao

[Exiled_Tonberry]

They have Assize, Holy and their aoe 900 potency nuke with diminishing returns. Asking for Aero III and getting upset if SCH gets something more than their 150 potency 800MP skill lmfao

Because this as close to balance, damage wise, as we've ever been. AST is raid utility heavy, WHM is personal damage heavy and SCH is is in-between. Asking for Bane, Energy Drain and Miasma II back is asking for the old problems to return. At most they should get Miasma II back so they have an aoe dot. But spreading their 60 potency, 30 second dot? No that's horrible.

[Starflake]

Because this as close to balance, damage wise, as we've ever been. AST is raid utility heavy, WHM is personal damage heavy and SCH is is in-between. Asking for Bane, Energy Drain and Miasma II back is asking for the old problems to return. At most they should get Miasma II back so they have an aoe dot. But spreading their 60 potency, 30 second dot? No that's horrible.

No it doesn't. The reasoning people want Bane or Miasmia II or Shadow Flare back is so that it isn't ass in dungeons or to spice up the rotation a little bit so it's not boring as hell. I'd also appreciate it if you could keep your WHM problems out of SCH threads. This isn't about White Mage. This topic in particular is obviously about aoe damage for SCH. WHM does not need another aoe skill on top of what it already has. It is by far the highest aoe damage healer out there and that will continue to be that way even if SCH gets a Shadowflare, Bane or Miasma II. AoE is also very seldom something one should worry about when it comes to healer balance as it's rarely relevant in savage or ultimate content. But if giving SCH some proper aoe means that WHM should get Aero III back, by all means, I'm all for it.

[EaMett]

I don’t think either of those are worth our time. Bring shadowflare and Ed back instead

[Eloah]

What of your post is even directed to me? I play SCH as an offhand and currently hold the number 1 healer combined DPS in the world across all Extremes. Not much, but I do know the class in depth. Now, let's first look at what you actually have to say.
Your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I said, so I won't respond to it. Except for the fact that when you factor in Chain Strategem and Fey Wind opener and potential reopeners, SCH is way above WHM DPS wise. Not only this, but due to the nature of both AST and SCH OGCD healing in the current state, they also just bring a lot more synergy and therefore healer DPS.

As a matter of fact, nothing you said touches upon why I state that ED in SHB and the SHB toolkit would be useless. Are you certain you've quoted the correct person here? Set aside the fact that Ruin II is an OGCD that triggers the GCD, it is still the most useless spender of the stacks in SHB the way it currently stands. You don't need a sink anymore.

First off, why do I need to know your "number 1 in the world"? Not saying you aren't, but why is that relevant. Second, and this is directed to the guy who quoted me prior and you for this post. I said nothing about SCHs DPS. Alls I said was they were top tier but the raid data shows us it's not a massive advantage over the other healers. And then in a later paragraph, that healers have the same problem tanks have. With only 3 healers one is always guaranteed a slot, that one just so happens to be SCH. The only thing I said about their DPS was what type it was, that's all.

And in regards to Energy Drain, I'm not sure if you are just confused, but you repeated the wrong info again. ED is an oGCD skill, and doesn't trigger the GCD. Ruin II is a GCD skill and does trigger it. Do you see the issue now. And while we don't know if we need to sink anymore, but we will because of eventual dated content, we don't even have the option. Our only choice is to over heal, which isnt good.