DRK redesign details explained

[shao32]

Ehhh.
This is one of the things I dislike about 5.0 DRK. "Just burn through all your MP it's whatever" is fine, but now TBN has become less of an on-demand mitigation, and now something you use to proc your darkside extenders first, mitigation second.

as far as some of the streamers that play with the new DRK in the past event keep darkside it's so easy and so brainless they can go to the kitchen prepare the dinner and come back, exagerations apart the darkside mechanic it will be just there to look we are doing something but in practice it will be like turn a stance and keep it on, you wont care about it since it's literaly imposible let it fade off.

TBN will remain as a on demand mitigation to and the only interesting thing of TBN is the chance of waste 500p for not using it properly or missclick the skill.

[WhyAmIHere]

TBN will remain as a on demand mitigation to and the only interesting thing of TBN is the chance of waste 500p for not using it properly or missclick the skill.

I raised this issue in one of the first threads as soon as we saw the media tour info.

Once a DRK outgears content, breaking the shield will become less reliable and consistent. Either our DEF or HP is going to be too high to break the shield in the 7s it lasts, meaning we waste that much MP/potency, OR with the changes from the tank trait, incoming damage will be increased and the moments where we dont have TBN will hurt even more, especially since DRK's MP regen is going to be miserably slow *outside of Del/BW windows.

It's just a bad design choice.

[shao32]

I raised this issue in one of the first threads as soon as we saw the media tour info.

Once a DRK outgears content, breaking the shield will become less reliable and consistent. Either our DEF or HP is going to be too high to break the shield in the 7s it lasts, meaning we waste that much MP/potency, OR with the changes from the tank trait, incoming damage will be increased and the moments where we dont have TBN will hurt even more, especially since DRK's MP regen is going to be miserably slow *outside of Del/BW windows.

It's just a bad design choice.

indeed, right now my ilvl 400 gear make the shield being imposible to break at time on anythting thats not a TB, DRK it's the only one that his mitigation kit loose effectiveness, or better say get severely punished for being overgeared reducing you mitigation options to anything it's not a TB or a angry crow of adds with it's sad and it's going to be worse in 5.0

idk what they are thinking when they redesing DRK for SHB but the ppl that do it din't care much about the job.

[Ultimatecalibur]

indeed, right now my ilvl 400 gear make the shield being imposible to break at time on anythting thats not a TB, DRK it's the only one that his mitigation kit loose effectiveness, or better say get severely punished for being overgeared reducing you mitigation options to anything it's not a TB or a angry crow of adds with it's sad and it's going to be worse in 5.0

idk what they are thinking when they redesing DRK for SHB but the ppl that do it din't care much about the job.

At that point it might be a good idea to start looking at using TBN to protect others from mechanics rather than using it as a self mitigation cooldown. You might start out needing that 25% extra hp to do content but after a certain ilevel you will have that 25% max hp constantly and you can use TBN to protect the DpS and healers who are taking 25% damage from attacks than you are. A 25% hp shield will break more easily on them.

[TouchandFeel]

At that point it might be a good idea to start looking at using TBN to protect others from mechanics rather than using it as a self mitigation cooldown. You might start out needing that 25% extra hp to do content but after a certain ilevel you will have that 25% max hp constantly and you can use TBN to protect the DpS and healers who are taking 25% damage from attacks than you are. A 25% hp shield will break more easily on them.

The healers and dps should be taking way less damage than the tank regardless of the tank having the Tank Mastery trait or not.
If you are waiting to use it specifically on mechanics that will damage the dps/healers enough to break TBN, you are greatly diminishing its use.

TBN is designed to be used regularly, not held on to, only making slight adjustments to line it up with busters. That is why it gives Dark Arts to keep up Darkside, adding 30s to the duration. That is why the other tanks were given defensive and support abilities to be used approximately every 30s. It is because that is how often you should be using those abilities and TBN.

There being a potential design flaw that forces you to have to find ways to work around it and ending up losing personal defense, on a tank, or losing dps is not something that should happen and if it does occur needs to be dealt with immediately by the dev team. Besides it's not like adding a couple seconds to TBN's duration would be hard to do.

[Ultimatecalibur]

The healers and dps should be taking way less damage than the tank regardless of the tank having the Tank Mastery trait or not.
If you are waiting to use it specifically on mechanics that will damage the dps/healers enough to break TBN, you are greatly diminishing its use.

TBN is designed to be used regularly, not held on to, only making slight adjustments to line it up with busters. That is why it gives Dark Arts to keep up Darkside, adding 30s to the duration. That is why the other tanks were given defensive and support abilities to be used approximately every 30s. It is because that is how often you should be using those abilities and TBN.

Remember all tanks have shield others abilities and TBN is the Dark Knight's version of Intervention/Cover/Nascent Flash/Heart of Stone. The OT (and possibly even the MT) will like be expected to use these abilities nearly on cooldown to protect others in harder content. As TBN shields equal to 25% the targets max hp; a hit that would break a tank targeted TBN would need to be a lot stronger than an attack that hits a Healer or DpS. Raid wide damage will likely be enough to get those Dark Arts procs if you shield DpS/Healers.

A 100k tank targeted with TBN would need to hit by 31.25k unmitigated damage in 6s for the shield to break.
A 71k DpS/Healer targeted with TBN would need to take 17.75 damage in 6s for the shield to break.

A normal Raid wide is likely to break a DpS/Healer TBN while it wouldn't break a Tank TBN if both characters have the same ilevel.

[TouchandFeel]

Remember all tanks have shield others abilities and TBN is the Dark Knight's version of Intervention/Cover/Nascent Flash/Heart of Stone. The OT (and possibly even the MT) will like be expected to use these abilities nearly on cooldown to protect others in harder content. As TBN shields equal to 25% the targets max hp; a hit that would break a tank targeted TBN would need to be a lot stronger than an attack that hits a Healer or DpS. Raid wide damage will likely be enough to get those Dark Arts procs if you shield DpS/Healers.

A 100k tank targeted with TBN would need to hit by 31.25k unmitigated damage in 6s for the shield to break.
A 71k DpS/Healer targeted with TBN would need to take 17.75 damage in 6s for the shield to break.

A normal Raid wide is likely to break a DpS/Healer TBN while it wouldn't break a Tank TBN if both characters have the same ilevel.

As I stated, if you are waiting on and relying on mechanics, like raid-wides, that will hit the dps or healers to break TBN then you are likely not using it as frequently as you should be (~ every 30s) and are not applying it where it provides the most benefit, on the MT.
During raid-wides, the dps and healers tend to be healed up using AoE heals and so throwing a TBN on one of them may result in the shield breaking but it basically nullifies the defensive gains of it since the out-going AoE heals will still revolve around the health of all the other party members, just resulting in the player that got the shield being over-healed. So you gain the benefit of it breaking and the DA proc but lose the defensive gains of the shield, at which point you might as well have just used a raw Flood or Edge instead.

That also doesn't take into account situations where the DRK is the MT or single tank situations like dungeons, which you will be running a lot of whether or not you feel that they "count".
Also, this will likely not be an issue in harder content like ShB savages since the incoming damage in those will probably be high enough that TBN will always break. This is in regards to all the other content, where the majority of players will spend the majority of their time, and a core and foundational ability for DRK potentially not working correctly there when we inevitably out-gear that content.

While what you are proposing would likely work to help guarantee that those TBNs break, it is still a sub-optimal workaround with discernible drawbacks for a problem that should simply not exist.

[shao32]

At that point it might be a good idea to start looking at using TBN to protect others from mechanics rather than using it as a self mitigation cooldown. You might start out needing that 25% extra hp to do content but after a certain ilevel you will have that 25% max hp constantly and you can use TBN to protect the DpS and healers who are taking 25% damage from attacks than you are. A 25% hp shield will break more easily on them.

Idk, single target dps/healer mechanics are balanced to his defense so i think TBN use on them will be proportionally equivalent to a personal/co-tank use so the issue will be the same.

i mean yes, TBN should be used to support you party when you are not actively tanking or you can save someone, but the duration and the strength of the shield limit a lot when and how we can use the shield without losing those 500p, a limit that become more severe depending of how overgeared we are, a thing that don't happen with the other tanks.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Idk, single target dps/healer mechanics are balanced to his defense so i think TBN use on them will be proportionally equivalent to a personal/co-tank use so the issue will be the same.

They currently are, but SE may be implementing in DpS/Healer busters that the OT needs to deal with roughly every 30s in fights. Every tank will have an ally protector usable every 20s to 30s and I hope and expect that SE will design fights to take this into account.

i mean yes, TBN should be used to support you party when you are not actively tanking or you can save someone, but the duration and the strength of the shield limit a lot when and how we can use the shield without losing those 500p, a limit that become more severe depending of how overgeared we are, a thing that don't happen with the other tanks.

I think you are overestimating how difficult it will be to break the shield and forgetting that you can just switch back to edge/flood when you no longer need the mitigation. A fair amount of the troubles the media tour participants were having breaking it seemed to me had more to do with the 20% damage reduction from tank mastery than with the amount and duration. Most of the twitch streams are just not familiar with how tough tanks are intended to feel in tank stance.

As I stated, if you are waiting on and relying on mechanics, like raid-wides, that will hit the dps or healers to break TBN then you are likely not using it as frequently as you should be (~ every 30s) and are not applying it where it provides the most benefit, on the MT.

You are making a serious mistake here. Raid wides and Prey style mechanics (which tend to deal 25% or more of the dps/healers hp) likely will come up ever 30 secs and, unlike now, the MT will more likely not be the primary target of the OT's ally protector abilities. The always on 20% damage reduction going to make using Intervention/Cover/Heart of Stone/Nascent Flash/TBN as useful on the MT as it will be on anyone else. This isn't SB where TBN, Intervention and Cover were used to negate the penalty for not being in Tank stance.

During raid-wides, the dps and healers tend to be healed up using AoE heals and so throwing a TBN on one of them may result in the shield breaking but it basically nullifies the defensive gains of it since the out-going AoE heals will still revolve around the health of all the other party members, just resulting in the player that got the shield being over-healed. So you gain the benefit of it breaking and the DA proc but lose the defensive gains of the shield, at which point you might as well have just used a raw Flood or Edge instead.

Are you aware of a concept called "Better Safe than Sorry?" Using the TBN shield to ensure a DpS/Healer doesn't die to an attack and then following it up with a free Edge/Flood is better than just doing an Edge/Flood. Skilled usage of TBN will be a defensive gain and DpS neutral, poor use with be a DpS loss for a defensive gain and non-use will be DpS neutral.

That also doesn't take into account situations where the DRK is the MT or single tank situations like dungeons, which you will be running a lot of whether or not you feel that they "count".

Even when overgeared in Dungeons, boss tank busters still tend to do 50% or more of a tank in tank stance's hp and dps still get targeted by telegraphed attacks that will knock off 25%+ of their hp.

Fears of TBN not working right are likely overblown and will likely be non-fears once player mentalities change. Not working like it does in "no tank stance" SB is not the same as not working at all. TBN was used in a lot of situations it was not needed for due to Tanks taking 25% more damage than intended.

[shao32]

They currently are, but SE may be implementing in DpS/Healer busters that the OT needs to deal with roughly every 30s in fights. Every tank will have an ally protector usable every 20s to 30s and I hope and expect that SE will design fights to take this into account.

doubt it, i don't think we will see anything diferent compared to now, our tools are going to be mostly to help our co-tank, but time wll say.

I think you are overestimating how difficult it will be to break the shield and forgetting that you can just switch back to edge/flood when you no longer need the mitigation. A fair amount of the troubles the media tour participants were having breaking it seemed to me had more to do with the 20% damage reduction from tank mastery than with the amount and duration. Most of the twitch streams are just not familiar with how tough tanks are intended to feel in tank stance.

im aware TBN is dps neutral and if you don't need it you dont use it and use the new oGCD instead.

indeed it's soon to say but if we compared to the actual situation of TBN we can only expect the new TBN will need to depend more heavily of TB to work properly but it's soon to say, and since SE don't really care much about DRK problems i expect it to be a problem in the end but thats just me and i can of course be wrong, but probably i will not care since i will move to GNB if they don't fix the DRK gameplay.