QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

[Shurrikhan]

It wont make the IR window more powerful. You act as if no potency adjustments will accompany a change to Onslaught being on the charge system.

Put it on the charge system and you have four options:

1. Break the whole point of its current balance, whereby it's largely considered a very subtle damage loss in exchange for very strong mobility. It will now be a more significant (but ultimately trifling if mobility was needed) damage inefficiency in exchange for near-limitless mobility.
2. Siphon potency away from the rest of the toolkit equal to a new amount produced via an obligatory on-cooldown charge ability, just like Plunge (and now Intervene). It no longer has any gauge cost and thus no IR synergy.
3. People bank charges for when in IR, where it's free.
4. Make Inner Release only affect weaponskills, making it even more dull.

Again, I don't see why Onslaught is being considered the problem here. It is an almost perfectly designed tool, even (or, especially) with the current Infuriate acceleration trait. The problem is Paladin's new Intervene ability. Put it on the Oath Gauge and give it a flat defensive/suppressive benefit to accompany its mobility; more shades of defensive utility aren't going to overwhelm the other tanks if they share costs, which Cover may be making a trend. Leave obligatory on-CD damaging charge gameplay to DRK.

There is a QoL change I'd like to see for all jobs that might have a beneficial impact here, though: Remove the "in combat" limitation on skills like Infuriate, Meditate, and soon Aetherflow/AS. In exchange, have Scholars and Summoners spawn in with their full number of stacks so there's no reason for them to hold up the party for that minute.

Give Warriors 10 seconds after combat before their Beast Gauge by 5 points per 5 seconds. Done. It doesn't generate resource over time; it just unclutters your opener and mitigates and inhibitions you might have for using Onslaught on pull.

[Lyth]

...

Everything on a discussion forum is going to involve difference of opinions. It seems that if I disagree with you on the power balance surrounding Onslaught, that's "derailing" your campaign to buff the ability (not that there's anything else that you could ask for in the way of buffs, at the moment). If you disagree with me on the power balance surrounding Living Dead or Hyperbolide, then it's merely a "difference of opinion". I don't think that you can fairly make that distinction.

There's also the issue of intellectual honesty. I've happily discussed both the pros and cons of your viewpoints, both from an overall tank balance perspective as well as the potential negative impacts that your suggestions would have on your own job. That's quite different from arguing a point that you know to be objectionable, simply because it provides personal benefit. That's the point that people seem to be persistently missing. Balance is in everyone's interests. If WAR is intrinsically more powerful than the other jobs, it undermines your own personal skill. That's part of the reason why ARR WAR and HW DRK are golden eras for each respective tank. People acknowledged your skill in playing them well.

Granted, I've seen a few people trying to honestly reach a balanced compromise, so my opinion on the matter has softened somewhat. But I think you've reaped what you've sown, not even in terms of these forums, but in terms of community perceptions of WAR mains as a whole. If you don't speak up against unfairness, people will just lump you in with the vocal minority.

...

I think when fully optimised, you're not going to see any of the other three tanks initiate a fight with their gap closers. This is primarily a function of getting raid buffs up first.

[Shurrikhan]

I think when fully optimized, you're not going to see any of the other three tanks initiate a fight with their gap closers. This is primarily a function of getting raid buffs up first.

Oh, I know, which is why Onslaught hasn't seemed a big deal to me anyways. It's less of a damage loss to open with than the others, but its enmity impact also matters all the less now, so I fully expected to continue delaying its use as per Plunge.

That said, I do understand why the typical player likes the feel of initiating a fight with it, even if it just makes it harder for melee to squeeze in their final oGCD before a jump when casual and optimized playstyles meet (read: clash) in midcore content.

And if there's a way that would cost nothing to the hardcore experience to satisfy that visible power fantasy for the average player (and make gameplay less clunky in the process, for instance) then I think we may as well take it.

[Kalise]

Everything on a discussion forum is going to involve difference of opinions. It seems that if I disagree with you on the power balance surrounding Onslaught, that's "derailing" your campaign to buff the ability (not that there's anything else that you could ask for in the way of buffs, at the moment). If you disagree with me on the power balance surrounding Living Dead or Hyperbolide, then it's merely a "difference of opinion". I don't think that you can fairly make that distinction.

Except that I was not referring to your difference of opinion about Onslaught as your derailing.

More so how you were complaining about Warriors for the crime of being Warriors.

Your first post in this thread was reasonable. You were merely opining about Onslaught from your perspective.

What followed, was not particularly on-topic:

I was on your side until about 4.2. I think a lot of people were. But then there was this big push from WAR mains to change Shake it off, which came at the expense of fixing DRK or even acknowledging that it was in a bad spot. Now you're doing it with Onslaught.

Other people are entitled to have an opinion of your conduct. Shame is an important self-regulator. It keeps you from being reprehensible and selfish. And if you don't have that self-regulation, then please allow the rest of us to assist you with this. The devs are clearly prioritising WAR issues at the expense of everyone else, so let's break this cycle from both ends. The hostility isn't just from me. Look around on the forums and on reddit. People are tired of this six year long favouritism. Even SCH didn't keep it up for this long.

Xeno is the one who has mentioned removing the rage cost on Onslaught. But it's also worth noting that he's the one who felt that Direct Hit and Crit made WAR dps optimisation too difficult, which is why a lot of things on WAR do both now. So this isn't about what is balanced so much as what is good for WAR.

If Onslaught was identical to the other tank gap closers, it would be flat out worse. The charge system doesn't give you two charges every 30 seconds. It just lets you hold one in reserve. So WAR still has the highest mobility out of any tank (double the mobility, in fact). The only difference is that outside of certain circumstances that grant a free Onslaught, it's designed to be a dps neutral mobility tool, rather than an oGCD potency gain.

So take your pick. Do you want double the mobility? Or do you want the removal of the gauge cost. Either is fine. Keep it as it is, with half the recast of the other tanks, or change it to be identical to the other tanks. What I don't want to see happen is for you to get the recast cost removed while keeping a 15s recast, and get yet another clear cut advantage over the other tanks.

I know it's kind of inevitable (this sort of decision-making always happens with the devs, as far as WAR is concerned), but I do think that the rest of us have the right to call you out on it.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said here.

Shake didn't need to be changed. DRK was in a similar situation in terms of raid-wide mitigation. Plenty of jobs, including DRK and PLD, had abilities that were introduced purely for flavour. Most people were happy to get a mostly useful suite of abilities. You were the only group of players who felt that you deserved more than the rest of us. The discussion of utility vs. dps in Stormblood was a lie. WAR mains wanted to claim that a disadvantage in "utility" entitled them to the highest dps. They became the best of both worlds. And more often than not, when we raised issues about ongoing problems about things like Living Dead, you were the ones to shout us down. It's still happening, in fact - you just need to look a few threads over.

If Onslaught is on a 10 second recast, then it's even more powerful. That kind of recast literally means on demand. So it would be even more silly to give up this kind of a recast advantage just to remove the gauge cost.

The charge system doesn't refresh two charges every 15 seconds. Otherwise they'd just set the recast at 15 seconds. It just acts as a storage reservoir for further uses. It just means that you aren't penalised as much for holding your gap closer for the next knockback mechanic. But it introduces other issues, such as the need to reserve a double gap closer for raid buffs. So there are a couple of places where this is going to become significantly more complex. At least with Onslaught, you don't have to think about it. Ungabunga up? Go right ahead and use it.

And we all have our rights to express our feelings in here. WAR mains certainly have the right to demand that WAR gain an even bigger advantage over the other tanks. But the rest of the tanking community, too, has the right to directly tell you what our feelings are on that. Especially if you missed the atmosphere in the room before.

I actually loved seeing the reactions to the world first ultimate.

"They cleared with DRK? But we asked for every possible buff! And the devs actually caved in and catered to every last request! There must have been some trick! Was it TBN? I knew we shouldn't have let them have that single target bubble. What else could we have begged the devs for?"

The one buff you can't ask for.

It was skill.

You should write some more letters to SE. Maybe they have figured out a solution to this.

Aside from a brief mention about Onslaught in posts 2 and 3, which seemed like a secondary goal for the post, these posts were entirely directed towards crying about Warriors in some way and not about discussing the merits of the suggestion itself.

(Before you mention it, yes, I know that I also make off-topic posts when I respond to posts like these, I'm aware of the hypocrisy)

Had your posting remained about specifically Onslaught and how it fits within WAR's kit and how it measures up to other Tanks, like in your first post and last couple of posts where you were doing the math to try and show how Onslaught is DPS neutral (Vs the straight up DPS gain of other Tanks gap closers) then I wouldn't have mentioned you as derailing this thread, since it would have just been you opining on the topic.

But instead, you feel the need to shoehorn in a grand spiel about how Warriors are the love child of SE and how every Warrior suggestion is the highest priority change for SE and how Warriors shut down discussions about other jobs in almost every single thread you enter.

Even those that are to do with other jobs themselves! Meaning that if ANYONE is shutting down discussions of other jobs, it's YOU. Not Warrior mains, YOU.

[Lyth]

The funny thing is, my posts had a lot more to do with Onslaught and tank balance than those responses that I got for disagreeing. I daresay you derailed yourselves. I could ignore the personal attacks for daring to disagree, but I'm a Dark Knight, not a Paladin. You may have stolen our Reprisal, but expect some repartee.

Either way, I saw what you collectively did with the WAR changes leading into 4.2 last expansion, simply because the rest of us passively let things slide. So if I see people pushing for a deal that gives WAR a further advantage over the other tanks, I'm going to speak my mind on the matter. I would hope that everyone else does the same.

[Izsha]

So you make inflammatory posts, then blame the people you baited for not staying on topic? You are quite a piece.

Continue your delusional view that you are "simply disagreeing" everytime you get on your soap box. You are playing the hero role of being a check against power? Why is there never seen a single post of yours decrying the most dominant tank of the last 2 years? Nowhere because it doesnt start with W.A.R. why didn't you complain that pld got the same upgraded mobility for free and at a dps gain as drk when it was more dominant for 2 years but instead rail against the dps loss warrior charge? How is that defending the weakest tabk from the further advancement of the current strongest tabk getting stronger? Your bias is showing constantly. It's pretty hard to hide with the crusade you've been on for 2 years.

Oh, also something something about onslaught because as long as I say a sentence or 2 about it, I can apparently also pretend this post is on topic.

[Danelo]

The health of the tanking community is the most important thing here.

I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is, trying to quell anyone's right to ask Santa SE Clause for QoL changes but, do so knowing you are in one of the best places, tanking-wise, ever. Some WAR mains get the stigma of "greedily" asking for more not because they need the change to be viable but more so bc they unknowingly have bought into the idea of being so OP that they fail to realize that all tanks need a reasonable weakness and a strength. Also the "they have it, why don't I?" mentality has caused issues. SE has played the role of an overindulgent parent for too long on many fronts which has caused great homogenization among the tanks.

But I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality. How would you know you were being an entitled brat if being given what you wanted when you wanted it was all you had ever known - It would just be normal to you. I ONLY fault those WAR mains who don't play other tank classes then trample over to the DRK specific threads and preach from their perch.

The reality is that there should be reasonable gaps in any kit. Ask away for QoL adjustments but know there are those that have and have had it way worse.

[Izsha]

Wheres paladins gap? Why arent these posts flooding in their threads? Because war players arent the only people with 'false perceptions'. You talk of the perceptions of others as flawed, yet never turn that discerning eye into the mirror. It's far easier to find any and every opportunity to create and attack a fictional boogeyman.

[whiskeybravo]

Yea, I'm just not seeing any room for Onslaught. It's either sit on 2 stacks of Infuriate or burn as many FC as you can to reduce the timer enough to take advantage of other raid buffs in between IR. It looks like in actual practice we'll still only use it a couple of times per 90 sec cycle without drawback. Perhaps if you had a party with no raid buffs whatsoever it might be slightly different, but to line up with Trick it's either sit on Infuriate charges or burn them and as many fell cleaves as you can to reduce the timer going into trick window so you can re-use them.

I could be wrong of course, since I've been wrong about so many other things.. But just what I'm seeing. Onslaught so OP we can't even use it.

[Kalise]

The health of the tanking community is the most important thing here.

I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is, trying to quell anyone's right to ask Santa SE Clause for QoL changes but, do so knowing you are in one of the best places, tanking-wise, ever. Some WAR mains get the stigma of "greedily" asking for more not because they need the change to be viable but more so bc they unknowingly have bought into the idea of being so OP that they fail to realize that all tanks need a reasonable weakness and a strength. Also the "they have it, why don't I?" mentality has caused issues. SE has played the role of an overindulgent parent for too long on many fronts which has caused great homogenization among the tanks.

But I don't blame the vast majority of WARs for that mentality. How would you know you were being an entitled brat if being given what you wanted when you wanted it was all you had ever known - It would just be normal to you. I ONLY fault those WAR mains who don't play other tank classes then trample over to the DRK specific threads and preach from their perch.

The reality is that there should be reasonable gaps in any kit. Ask away for QoL adjustments but know there are those that have and have had it way worse.

It's funny. Since outside of Heavensward expansion, Paladin has been up there with Warrior (Warrior instead being gimped in X.0 patches to later get buffed in X.1/X.2 patches). Paladin has been a fairly consistent Tank throughout ARR and is arguably the strongest Tank in SB (Since, they CAN still MT but happen to be better at OT). Heck, Worlds First Ultimate used a Paladin but not a Warrior.

ShB looks to address every single one of Paladin players qualms. They're getting better AoE rotation that makes more sense. They're getting better stances with no more GCD for swapping. They're getting better enmity for pulling allowing them to actually pull. They're getting a gap closer. They're getting instant casts during Requiescat so it's less ping reliant. They're getting a ridiculous buff to Sheltron.

But that's fine. That's just the best Tank in the game getting more buffs, but it's cool, because they're not Warrior.

Also, I don't know much about Warriors "Trampling over to DRK specific threads". Heck, when I last mentioned in this thread about this point, I was shown 2 whole quotes where Warrior mains simply made a single, one sentence post, offering their opinion on a topic.

Meanwhile, I see DRK mains, whine about Warriors in Warrior thread.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in DRK threads.

DRK mains whine about Warriors in PLD threads.

You know what I don't see a lot of? DRK mains trying to actually ask for changes for DRK's in threads.

Only since the Media Tour information was released have I seen consistent threads about DRK's, ones that have been active and not been shoved several pages back because of DRK mains constantly bumping up literally every other thread except DRK ones by whining about Warriors.

What's SE to make of this? When literally every thread ends up in a discussion of Warrior? They're going to assume that Warrior is the most popular job and the one that people are most concerned about being addressed. Since, that's obviously why EVERY thread is discussing them right?

But whatever... I'm going to be swapping to GNB with ShB anyway. If that job runs into issues, you know what I'll do? Bitch about Warrior I'll create discussions about the job and try and keep them relevant and on topic.