Do you feel empathy towards the Warriors of Darkness?

[Jaywalker]

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You certainly don't need to like the guy, but honestly when it comes to character depth, realism, motive, etc. Zenos is actually very technically solid.

I don't want to do a psychobabble deal or link to psychobabble so gonna do my best to explain what I've gathered speaking plain. Zenos if you ignore everything he says about his motives and experiences and only take him as sir-fights-a-lot would be very flat and boring, but that would also be dishonest and deliberately omitting significant parts of him and his personality. He's basically a serial killer, but when I say this wanna stress that I don't mean a serial killer caricature. I mean he thinks and acts like real life serial killers and has a lot of overlap with issues/motives some real life serial killers have.

He doesn't have empathy but it's not as simple as not being able to read what others may be feeling or why. There's something in him that is incapable of caring even if he does know. I suspect, particularly since he was fishing for the role he ultimately foists on the Warrior of Light, that he doesn't really see people in terms of specific and irreplaceable connections but as roles in his life. If one role sits empty, as long as someone else is placed into the same role and can fill it he doesn't care.

Indifference toward others isn't something where he's just liberated or anything, he doesn't get any real satisfaction from social interaction. He's basically bored out of his skull most of the time and desperately seeking any ways to escape that regardless of how it effects himself or others. Him settling into obsession with combat makes a ton of sense because he actually felt direction and something to aspire to in combat. That plus adrenaline in fights provokes strong feeling and he basically chases that sense of being under threat/challenge like a high. The time between fights when he has no opponents who can match him, he collects weapons that will let him fully exert himself when he DOES find an opponent who can match him. If anything he probably prefers being kept on his toes and barely able to keep up rather than winning, because certain victory and victory in-general bore him.

He's kind of simple in the sense that his motives do not come from his relationships with other people. He doesn't care about other people generally, he cares about roles. When he calls WoL his first friend and his enemy, it's not because he knows anything about the WoL personally. He just knows that WoL is able to keep up during fights in ways that let him feel. We never really hear him voice interest in anyone from Garlemald, and there are indications Asahi misread him hard when he developed his obsession.

Simple ≠ bad or lacking depth, complex ≠ good or having depth. They can, but it's not automatic or universal.

Again you don't have to like Zenos. But the way he thinks is kind of alien. There are things missing from how he processes things and SE actually rendered that in a realistic way that deserves respect. Most people get it wrong in fiction. I think the movie Nightcrawler was one of the other cases that got it correct in a non-villainous way.

[Kalise]

So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information.

Well...

They had the time to go chase down an Ascian, convince them to teach them about how causing a Calamity on the Source can put everyone on their world into the aetherial sea, then teach them how to travel to the Source, travel to the Source and start the long process of trying to create an imbalance of dark enough to cause a Calamity (Knowing full well that there would be at least 1 WoL on the Source trying to prevent that).

Then there's also the time for us to spend post-beating them, where we could go off and liberate Doma and Ala Mhigo and THEN still have enough time to eventually be called to the First and THEN still have time to fix the place.

Sure, you can maybe argue that Minfilia, somehow, has magical goddess powers that even Hydaelyn herself doesn't have, so that she can somehow stem the spread of the Light after we beat the WoD's and that can cover the time we spent going through the Far East and Gyr Abania and the ensuing interactions with Imperials/Tsuyu/Shadowhunter/The Parley/Zenos/(Omega? I'm not sure if that's canon yet)

But still... There was no indication of them trying things and failing before resorting to Ascian help. Like, they come to the Source to create Darkness to cause a Calamity. And we're going to the FIRST to create DARKNESS to reverse the Flood of Light...

Did they try generating Darkness on their world? Like, literally the first thing that would come to anyone's mind when faced with the concept "Oh noes, there's too much Light because we got rid of all the Darkness! Whatever shall we do?"

Did they try fighting the Sin Eaters?

Did they do ANYTHING AT ALL?

They never mentioned that they attempted anything. They were not going "Our world was doomed by our own actions and nothing we tried helped". They were simply stating that their only course of action was to get aid from Ascians and come to the Source and cause a Calamity to rejoin their world.

Essentially, they come across as some of the worst "Heroes" ever. They talk about how they were fulfilling Hydaelyn's will by going around beating up Primals. Then something happens as a result of beating up Primals and they just give up and accept defeat because they can't beat up a Flood of Light... Until they learn from an Ascian that they can help their world by beating up Primals on the Source.

Like, yes, their world was in a terrible place. Yes, it was in part due to their actions. But it was never made apparent that the drastic measure of going to the Source and causing a Calamity was their last ditch effort after everything else they had tried ended in failure and that they didn't WANT to do it but felt they HAD to.

No, it just came across like they were petulant children and when they encountered something that was caused by their indiscriminate beating up of things, that was now causing their world to be destroyed, they started sulking and built up anger towards Hydaelyn to the point where it seems like they wanted to go F up the Source just to spite her and the whole "Return the First to the aetherial sea" thing was just icing.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I'm sorry Jaywalker but I truly, honestly have no idea where you got that impression of Zenos. Throughout the entirety of Stormblood all I ever saw was, as you put it, sir fights-a-lot. Please point me to some cutscene or something that gave you an impression otherwise because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about to get anything like that from him. I'm not being snarky here when I ask that, I mean it.

[Bright-Flower]

Zenos had potential but I didn't end up liking him, though I am intrigued in what's set up in 4.55 so maybe I"ll like him more going forward.

A. It felt like the main antagonist not giving a **** about the main conflict, liberating ala mhigo and doma, kind of undercut the greater conflict a bit. I mean he's apparently so disinterested that he doesn't even force the resistance to abandon rhalgr's reach after defeating us the first time.

B. He felt like he was just a wall, something for us to lose to until we get to level 70 and the story arbitrarily decides we can win now. It didn't feel like there was any actual story or narrative with us getting stronger to face him, nothing in particular we did to strive to new heights etc. We just keep doing what we've been doing the last few years and somehow our power level number got bigger so we can fight him. This is a boring means of power growth. Fordola was handled in a more interesting way, though slightly lazily, in having a device used to turn her advantage against her rather than just 'getting stronger' in that vague shoenen way. Even in his unwinnable boss fights he doesn't feel imposing or threatening because the fights are actually really easy and it feels very artificial when the game suddenly says 'okay you lose now.' Compared to something like the final chapter 3 boss of type 0 where you're just trying to survive against the tiger l'cie and he'll wreck you if he hits you for example.

We also didn't have any info on how he got the way he was, no echo flashblack showing how his childhood brought him to this point etc, the only glimpse we got of his backstory was in a short story that only recently came out.

So I just personally didn't get invested in him, though I do think he has potential to be more interesting in his new quest.

[JeanneOrnitier]

Your B example really, really bothered me too.

[RopeDrink]

I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about to get anything like that from him

And you never will if your attempt to remedy it is to be thrown a cutscene to directly push the point at you.

It is subtly hinted throughout the entirety of his screentime - his actions, animations, and dialogue - that he's doing the things he's doing with little care for neither the victims or even the empire itself, all for his own pleasure (if you could call it that seeing as it's just not good enough to elicit even that), yet as soon as an actual potential challenge emerges, it is the one and only time he'll stop looking at it like it's just cattle and pay any kind of attention. The second time you face him, despite pretty much losing yet again, he as good as tells you to back off, live, get stronger, and return when you're worthy. Hell, every time you see him in the Empire, even his introductory cutscene, he's bored as all hell in his seat - the same pose you find him in when you confront him the penultimate time and he finally admits you were like a work-of-progress for him, that he practically falls for you (not in the usual sense) due to being the instigator of him actually feeling anything after so long.

He's consistently shown to be totally inured to everything, physically and emotionally - with the only thing closely resembling a chance at feeling anything being the thrill of the hunt (the thing that gives you the 'sir-fights-a-lot impression) which also waned due to his prowess and the fact nobody could even stand up to him, not even the WoL when they first cross paths. Until he was finally equalled, which is when he spills his guts before the climax, even realizing that in his newfound excitement he's completely forgetting himself, outright stating just how little pretty much everything, even the empire, means to him.

That's just the basics of the very start and the very end with little reference to the inbetween. I loved how he casually just walked into Ala Mhigo like he owned the place... And then quite literally lived up to that image... And then walked off like it meant nothing to him. How he doesn't seem to realize how much people want him beaten, how the misery doesn't even register or get acknowledged in any way on his radar, just 'bleating of the weak, only the strong survive', while simultaneously bewailing the fact nobody can challenge him. That's important. He's not the villain screaming at the top of their lungs how powerful they are and how nobody can stop them - he is ALREADY that person and is utterly bored to tears with it.

How you're meant to believe he's doing it for the empire or some reason we're familiar with, yet it's not. It's all for himself. You could call it selfish, yet in some weird way it isn't - he just doesn't know any better due to feeling quite literally nothing. He WANTS that pleasure and feeling but it eludes him constantly, and when you indirectly give it to him he practically falls in love with you. It's so twisted he genuinely regards you as some sort of friend for giving him that 'gift', even if the intention was to actually put the lunatic in the ground.

You call him sir-fights-a-lot, yet he doesn't even enjoy that any more. He's too good for you and everyone around him. That's not cockiness, it's fact. He WANTED to be challenged and it just never happened until you 'levelled up' as it were.

Again, none of that goes into any great detail. It's something you should revisit and revalue sometime rather than try have it proven to you with blunt evidence. It wasn't put that way at all. For a character that is so easy to be done straight-edge and direct, the 'arc' (as it were) was always kept just below the surface, creeping out in bits and pieces with various scenes and dialogue, rather than "Today in X scene, we will highlight how Villain No.3 is a raving-mad lunatic".

[VictorTheed]

I need to rewatch thier cutscenes cause I mainly remember our interaction with them in the dravania forlands and that scene were Albert tried to attack minfilia.

As far as villians goes I'm still trying to decide who I liked better between niddhog and zenos, both were awesome.

[RopeDrink]

While I most definitely advocate for players to use the Journal and literally relive those scenes, I'll throw that video in here again for good measure. No doubt some out there would just rather the quick and dirty approach without having to do actual skipping.

Video is of (most) of the important bits (skips a bit) but essentially just gives the PoV of Arbert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMr_BZddAw

[Iscah]

They had the time to go chase down an Ascian, convince them to teach them about how causing a Calamity on the Source can put everyone on their world into the aetherial sea, then teach them how to travel to the Source, travel to the Source and start the long process of trying to create an imbalance of dark enough to cause a Calamity (Knowing full well that there would be at least 1 WoL on the Source trying to prevent that).

What makes you assume they "chased down" Elidibus and had to convince him to help? It serves his purposes far more than theirs - clean up the mess Mitron made by letting himself get defeated, and stop the encroaching flood that will render the First useless to Zodiark.

I think it's far more likely that Elidibus sought them out - either as they despaired over having caused the flood, or perhaps he was the one to bring them that revelation in the first place. "Look what a terrible mess you've made by playing the hero. A world lost to light is beyond saving.... but there is still something you can do."

He would be doing it for their sake, of course. All out of concern for the fate of their world, nothing to do with the fact it achieving his goal of a Rejoining, and absolutely no ulterior motive to convince this world's last hope to kill themselves and then go kill an equally inconvenient hero on another world.

But still... There was no indication of them trying things and failing before resorting to Ascian help.

True, they didn't tell us whether they tried any other solutions first... but why would they? It would just be details that would bog down the flow of that scene. I'm not sure why you would expect them to go into it at that point.

[Gula]

Big snip.

Making me want to revisit cutscenes. This is why I loved Zenos and his "end" had me wishing my character would have used Shoulder Tackle. He's a literal wall until you hit 70 (which is kinda funny as a healer because he cannot KO you) and it's something refreshing, to me as the player, used to being the perfect solution. Only second to our most hated foe, politics.

The WoD crew didn't have such an impact upon us because it was like we were pre-determined to win. Which is expected in a hero boy story. But. Zenos broke out of that mold for all the times we encountered him sans the last. I sympathize with them more than Zenos overall though, I just enjoy Zenos more.