Do you feel empathy towards the Warriors of Darkness?

[RopeDrink]

My main issue with Zenos is that he simply doesn't care about anyone around him. He has no sympathetic motives or goals.

Ironically, that is exactly why I enjoy him. He took it so far as to admit he doesn't even give that big of a damn about the empire, that's how unwavering he was in his own need to feel something. It's hard not to have at least a small smidgeon of sympathy for him because, as is pointed out several times, he's so inured to emotion (beyond his own callous blood-lust) that when he's finally tested (and beaten), he borderline falls for you as potentially the only source of feeling he's ever gotten outside of the lacking thrill of the hunt. He was so powerful and feared that he single-handedly turned the war on Doma essentially by himself, and at the back of it all it was mostly to do with his own personal thrill more than anything, which was lacking.

I loved Zenos as a villain BECAUSE his character took that uncompromising ball and ran with it to the unwavering extreme right until the end, give or take a few bonus points for the voice-actor and the occasional hammy moments to lighten it up. It helped tremendously that he was built as an unexpected and IMMEDIATE threat that kicked our backside numerous times, representing the need to 'level up' as it were, whereas some villains like Asahi took the more plot/scheming route, and Yotsuyu with the 50-50 redemption angle.

In short, disliking them or being unengaged by them is one thing, but I'd hate for the game to have all villains be the same. We've had a nice assortment thus far, from sympathetic characters like the WoD's, to the uncompromisingly nasty like Zenos, to the 'can they change' of Yotsyu, to the 'I really just want to punch this guys face in' Asahi, not counting many others.

[Theodric]

I'm all for variety in regards to antagonists and villains. I don't think each and every one of them should be sympathetic. With that said, Zenos felt too much like a convenient plot device to allow both Ala Mhigo and Doma to be reclaimed relatively easily. There isn't even a counterattack afterwards until a convenient barrier and army can be set up to prevent one from happening. Nor is there any exploration of what, exactly, happened to the non-combatants who had built a life for themselves within Gyr Abania only to see the city be invaded in the reclamation effort.

The Warrior of Light being beaten back by Zenos was interesting to me up until he just...walked away. Not just once, either - but on multiple occasions. I'd like to see the antagonists succeed more frequently to help flesh them out as a threat but for that to happen they need to do more when victorious. Ilberd is more memorable to me than Zenos for that reason because although he was defeated you can see the result of actions every time you look at Raubahn.

[Cidel]

It was pointed out to me in an in-game conversation tonight that the lore book says Arbert's axe, according to legend, drives its wielder insane. That may account for his more villainous personality in some cutscenes.

Ah, but don't forget the male viera fan's battlecry: "lore doesn't matter."

I'm of the opinion that those who DON'T empathize with them probably haven't been keeping up with the story or just skimmed through it without much care.

Likewise, I could just as easily be of the opinion that those who unconditionally DO empathize with them probably have some selective memory. Selective in simply recalling their situation and plight (indeed, tragic), but easily dismissive of their overall cliche villainous demeanor, personalities and exaggerated antagonism. Even when we first interact with them, Alphinaud speaks out to them about sharing a "common enemy," but- naw, suckerpunch! And that says nothing about the excessive amounts of sneering, leering and sinister commentary that the devs made sure to highlight throughout like 80% of their screentime (save for the BLM and WHM). They only finally started to act like rational people after they got their butts handed to them and Hydaelyn intervened. They say they're "heroes" of their world, but I'm guessing that personality doesn't account for much there.

I empathize with the plight of their world. But the active WoDs were designed to come-off as malicious and smug like every generic villain ever made; up until the end of their arc and even then there's no actual reconciliation aside from a cautionary bit of advice. Any empathy the devs tried to milk from us me in their entirety of like 2 cutscenes was a no-sell; I don't even care if they made the lalafell cry. Like, maybe almost half of the actual conflicts in this game could be avoided with proper communication (I know, that'll take the fun out of things, but if empathy is the goal, shoot first, ask question later never worked for me). It's like Y'mhitra says in the SMN 50 job quest about Tristan: had he approached us as a ally, things might have turned out better.

I DO understand the lead-up to why their world got overtaken by light. It's not as if I don't understand the circumstances. But I won't empathize with this particular group, because they don't even make it seem like a dilemma for them up until Urianger metaphorically slaps some sense into them about how they're going about it. Maybe that's the dev's fault though- maybe they should have given them "character development," but polarizing them from a cliche' villain to some sympathetic tragic "heroes" in the span of one cutscene doesn't really do it for me.

[SeriousPan]

Likewise, I could just as easily be of the opinion that those who unconditionally DO empathize with them probably have some selective memory. Selective in simply recalling their situation and plight (indeed, tragic), but easily dismissive of their overall cliche villainous demeanor, personalities and exaggerated antagonism.

This is basically what I think but perfectly explained, thanks Cidel. I paid plenty of attention to the story and even then I had to think, again, If I had missed something. But clearly this is a problem of rushed character arcs and story in order to get their arc finished in time for everything else.

I can't empathize with the group but I can with the world they're from. Another big issue is everyone talking about the Lore books. That's great that they're expanded on in the books. But I unfortunately cannot buy those and therefore have to rely on the game and what it presents. And even then I don't believe they could save the issue of their over the top, villainous portrayal.

[ObsidianFire]

Well, it is confirmed in the media tour that we will be getting quests about what the WoDs did on the 1st Shard in 5.0. So our perspective of them will most likely change and be much more rounded out in 5.0.

[Iscah]

There's a word that perfectly describes that mental state where you try to feel empathy for someone who just wants you to die, and is doing everything in his power to make that happen right now, even though you've done nothing at all to affect him in any way.

That word is "dumb". Don't be dumb. Self-defense laws exist for a reason.

That isn't the same thing.

If you understand why they think they have to fight you, and regret that it's happening this way and that you have to fight back, that's empathy.

You could say it's dumb to not fight back against an attacker because you feel empathy for them, but it's not dumb to have empathy in the first place. That's just a sign of a compassionate person.

[Neoyoshi]

I feel like they are just people caught up in this ongoing power struggle between forces far bigger then them, and they are basically just collateral damage.

So, yeah i feel sympathy for them. There's a crap ton of plot holes in-between that could be filled in, but yes, very much so.

[Sathona]

From what I remember the Warriors of Darkness weren't always bad individuals, they were like us the warriors of Light but something happened and they ended up becoming Warriors of Darkness that did things only to better their own situations. I would be invested in their story and trying to figure out why they are the way they are now, Its more of a mystery story than one of empathy.

They defeatted the Ascians of the First and did several good deeds etc which caused the Light to flood the First.
In order for them to come to the Source they had to die first and be reborn as WoDs based on what Elidibus told them

[Cilia]

On the surface Zenos is very simple - he's a cruel dictator with overwhelming strength who needs to be toppled to free the oppressed Doman and Ala Mhigan peoples. However, a closer examination of his character reveals a much more complex character, and though he earns only the barest amount of sympathy he is still tragic to a degree. Despite all the horrible things he did, Zenos was still a victim of the Garlean war machine designed by Solus to cause maximum strife for as long as possible, with a mother who died early in his life and Varis as a largely negligent father; for all we know he became a heartless, remorseless killer and tyrant because he never had the opportunity to be anything else.

(Personal agency comes into play somewhere though, and when given the opportunity to be something else Zenos immediately throws it away to resume his "hunt"... so again, very little sympathy. He is a tragic villain, but not a sympathetic one.)

As for the Warriors of Darkness... while I understand their plight, as Omegamon said in Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth: "There is no justice in sacrificing one world to save another." (Or something to that effect.) Their motives were sympathetic, but the means they intended to use to achieve their goals were anything but, and we don't know how OK the people of Norvrandt would have been with using a Rejoining to live on as a part of the Source's Lifestream. S'ppose we'll find out shortly.

Empathy? Sure. But that doesn't change what needed to be done.

[Lauront]

Where did they mention the role of his father or state of his mother?

I mean, given that we do have players who want to side with the Ascians/wanted to be Warriors of Darkness when before SHB was announced because they wanted to not be goody two-shoes

I'd very much enjoy it, although I doubt we'll see it go that far.

The best way for the WoL and Scions to not spread light by defeating Primals is to not have the Ascians tempt people to summon Primals in the first place.

Like, every indication we've had is that the balance between Light and Dark would have been perfectly fine if the Ascians simply left well enough alone.

That we are fighting for our survival (in the specific case of our actions against the Warriors of Darkness and Elidibus) and the protection of innocents (in the case of the Primals) is something I cannot imagine to be considered "bad". Are we supposed to just roll over and die? Maybe cause a few atrocities while we're at it?

Of course, unless some worlds tend naturally towards one or the other force (light or dark) to the point that a flood is inevitable if they don't intervene to get it in the right state - after all, they now know that tilting a world too far to darkness will doom it in terms of their own agenda. Banri Oda mentioned the state of fragmentation of the shards is not necessarily a good one, due to being unstable. We don't really know enough yet about the Ascians, or Zodiark, to draw a full picture on what's really going on, but I can guess that the Rejoining will have to happen, just not necessarily by the method the Ascians have been pursuing. The Source is an inadequate counter-example to this since they've been active on it since time immemorial... and arguably in the XIIIth's case, they weren't aware that they could push things too far in the other direction. So we're left guessing that everything would be fine without them... but that's just speculation.


On the topic, yes, I found them sympathetic, especially Arbert. More so than some of the other characters we encounter, for that matter. I'm looking forward to seeing more of them.