QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

[whiskeybravo]

Actually, match the potency of Upheaval at 450. If 30 seconds is worth 200 potency, and 20 gauge worth around 220 minimum... 450 would work.

[Kalise]

I was explaining why there is this "hostile" attitude toward these topics -- furthermore, I was trying to not be rude about it.

Yeah, by apologizing for being disrespectful, before then lumping a single Warrior QoL improvement suggestion into a pile of "someone who has everything handed to them asking for more."

Made even worse by you admitting you share this view and your main class is stated as Paladin. Which is literally the class that is getting everything handed to them this expansion. (Which I'm personally totally fine with. More power to PLD players. I only hope that DRK eventually gets fixed)

Furthermore, you said I got "pissy." Please, link me the quote where that happened.

With the revamp of the tank jobs, many were hoping for other tanks to get their chance in the spotlight, but it's not leaning that way.

Many -- myself included -- see this as someone who has everything handed to them asking for more. This is ONE drawback for Warrior.

With all the talk about SE's limited resources and how x can't happen because of funding and such, how can one justify making this "QoL" change for Warrior when there are other tanks that could use the attention?

I'm not saying you're unjustified in your request... rather, at this juncture, it's perceived as taking a mile when given an inch.

A lot of moaning about Warrior being Warrior... Warrior's not allowed nice things because Warrior. People aren't allowed to talk about things wrong with their classes kit because Warrior.

It comes off a lot like certain other posters, whom always pop into Tank threads to bemoan Warrior for being Warrior.

Meanwhile, you don't see Warrior mains going around crying about how PLD is getting buffs. Warriors aren't jumping into threads about buffs for DRK/GNB and asking for more Warrior changes.

So why do you feel the need to hop into a Warrior thread and complain about Warriors?

Like, there are more important things to be doing than complaining about Warriors being Warriors. Such as, trying to get DRK the buffs it deserves given that both its reworks have be disasters (AND also made the job less interesting to play to boot...) or ensuring that GNB isn't DoA due to its crap potencies and lacklustre defensive skills.

I say this as someone who's likely to main swap into Gunbreaker because I'm tired of the current iteration of Inner Release where it's all about just spamming 1 skill for the duration (Which is also true for the new Delirium as well as Requiescat, outside of finishing with a Confiteor)

[NyneSwordz]

Onslaught having a recast advantage doesn't mean anything if we don't actually need to use it that often for "mobility".

If fact, it's so superior to the other tanks gap closers that simply using Fell Cleave to shave 5 seconds off Infuriate almost gains you as much potency.

Oh yea we can use it 3 times as often, for a loss of a whopping measly 453 potency. Just wow, Onslaught is so great - needs to be nerfed immediately.

(you could say I changed my mind)

I'll take Onslaught for 300, please. And we can compromise on 30 sec recast.

The only reason I can think of for Onslaught having a 10 sec recast is just to make it impossible to screw up and not have it available for Inner Release window. With a 10 sec recast, you could screw up and use it, and it will ALWAYS be off cooldown and available for use with Inner Release.

So, yeah, I agree. The low cooldown on Onslaught has no real relation frequency of use. Let me say it again. CD on Onslaught HAS NOTHING to do with ACTUAL FREQUENCY OF USE. It has more to do with just making it always line up with Inner Release it seems like.

But, this can be achieved by putting it on a charge system. Right? We can always reserve one charge for Inner Release. And like I've said a million times, I don't mind bringing Onslaught's cooldown up to 30 seconds. Because I don't expect to ever really use it more often than 30 seconds...ESPECIALLY with Passage of Arms (*Edit er I mean Arms Length). And even if I did, the Charge system (2 charges) has those rare situations where I do need to use more than 2 Onslaughts within 30 seconds covered...

[NyneSwordz]

....

It's not bad to have another button to press every 30 seconds imo. Although, I can see some people being annoyed by it.

I dunno. I guess some people don't really care about being able to use Onslaught outside of combat. I do. I guess it was worth a shot bringing it up in a post. Guess I'm used to that being the case with literally every other MMO I've played, WoW, GW, whatever, that charge/gap closer abilities are always just there for you to use whenever just for fun.

Also, like you said, with Arms Length, (My bad for calling it Passage of Arms - Must have been confusing everyone...), there's much less of a need for Onslaught, unless the boss suddenly moves or whatever. So, I figure Onslaught's going to be used pretty much only during Inner Release. It's just another button to tack on after a Fell Cleave. It's kinda boring. And if that's how it's gonna be, why even have a beast gauge cost on it to begin with? Will it really be needed as a rage dump in ShB with no bonus crit to encourage maintaining a high level of beast gauge and with rage dumping into Fell Cleave being emphasized by the new Infuriate mechanic which gives a super-Fell Cleave AND with no need to ever reserve rage because Infuriate has 2 charges (we can always save 1 for emergencies).

I dunno.

With the new expansion, I figure this would be a good time to take a look at this stuff.

Lastly, addressing your concern that Onslaught is just gonna be another OGCD dps action and not a gap closer if the rage/beast gauge cost is removed, well, like I said above, it is sorta just that. Right? It's already just another OGCD dps action. The only difference is that as it is, it's an OGCD dps action that's ONLY USED during Inner Release. Kinda right? So it's basically a 90 second OGCD dps action, and if it costs no rage, it'll be a 30 second OGCD dps action.

I guess some people might find it annoying to have to hit another button every 30 seconds to maximize dps (and maybe also double Onslaught within Inner Release), I don't mind it. Actually sounds more fun to me. And it's already that way for other tanks so I don't see why it'd be an issue for Wars to have to have to hit another button more often. But yeah, I can see some people not digging it.

I hope they find a way to make Onslaught free outside of combat, but if they don't, I hope they do adjust it in some form. I agree with you that it definitely feels a little lackluster right now going into ShB.

[Lyth]

...

This is a common enough mistake, even now.

Fell Cleave is a GCD. Onslaught is an oGCD. You cannot compare their potency/gauge in the same way. The potency value of Fell Cleave for a given gauge value is less than stated because it replaces another GCD.

Stormblood:
Fell Cleave
Replacing HS:
50 IB = 500 - 150
50 IB = 350 (140 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing Maim:
50 IB = 500 - 190 - 10 IB
60 IB = 310
50 IB = 258 (103 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing SP:
50 IB = 500 - 250 - 20 IB
70 IB = 250
50 IB = 179 (72 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing SE:
50 IB = 500 - 250 - 10 IB
60 IB = 250
50 IB = 208 (83 potency/20 gauge)

In Stormblood, Onslaught about breaks even in potency with Fell Cleave (outside of IR, where it's a dps benefit). If the Fell Cleave in question replaces HS, then it's a big gain over onslaught. If it replaces SP or SE, then it's actually a loss compared to Onslaught. It averages to be something around 107 potency/20 gauge over the combo, which is a bit like TBN's 4 potency loss per use. Let's take a look at the Media Tour numbers, although these can change.

Shadowbringers: (Media Tour)
Fell Cleave
Replacing HS:
50 IB = 520 - 200
50 IB = 320 (128 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing Maim:
50 IB = 520 - 300 - 10 IB
60 IB = 220
50 IB = 183 (73 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing SP:
50 IB = 520 - 380 - 20 IB
70 IB = 140
50 IB = 100 (40 potency/20 gauge)

Replacing SE:
50 IB = 520 - 380 - 10 IB
60 IB = 140
50 IB = 117 (47 potency/20 gauge)

So the first thing that you should notice is that the true potency gain from Fell Cleave is lower than it was before. That's because the WAR combo potency numbers are much higher relative to the value of Fell Cleave. If your Fell Cleave replaces HS, then it's a potency gain over Onslaught. For any other GCD, it's actually a potency loss compared to Onslaught. On average, across the combo, the value of Fell Cleave is 81 potency/20 gauge. So Onslaught is nearly always a potency gain over Fell Cleave. And that's excluding IR, where it's always a potency gain. The only times that you won't want to use Onslaught are when it costs you a usage of Inner Chaos (which is going to be tied to your Infuriate uses anyways), or if it costs you a use of Upheaval (maybe don't do that).

So perhaps what you should really be asking is for them to buff Fell Cleave. But maybe, just maybe, it might be a nice thing to support the other tanks in getting their issues fixed, instead of demanding buffs on a complete non-issue for a job that is grossly overpowered to begin with. And hey, I even did your math for you so that you don't have to.

[Kalise]

This is a common enough mistake, even now.

Fell Cleave is a GCD. Onslaught is an oGCD. You cannot compare their potency/gauge in the same way. The potency value of Fell Cleave for a given gauge value is less than stated because it replaces another GCD.

Fell Cleave doesn't replace another GCD. It merely defers another GCD.

You will not be comboing Fell Cleave > Maim > Storm's Path.

You will not be comboing Heavy Strike > Fell Cleave > Storm's Path.

You will not be comboing Heavy Strike > Maim > Fell Cleave (Thus leading to the next GCD skill being Heavy Strike again)

The only time it "Replaces" another GCD action is specifically during a timed window. Which is mostly irrelevant because the majority of Warrior timed windows of burst damage are Inner Release and thus entirely Fell Cleaves. With outside of IR, it being Inner Chaos that is the action that will be doing the replacing of a GCD (Thus being less than a 900 potency gain - Not accounting for the fact that it is DCH)

[Lyth]

It does replace a GCD. If you went through the fight, start to finish, without using Fell Cleave, you would use X combo actions. If you use Fell Cleave Y times, you would instead end up with X - Y combo actions. The opportunity cost associated with Fell Cleave is the lost combo actions that could have gone in that slot instead.

This is fairly standard analysis, we did it for Bloodspillers as well when comparing "natural" vs. TBN generated Bloodspillers.

[Shurrikhan]

Fell Cleave doesn't replace another GCD. It merely defers another GCD.

You will not be comboing Fell Cleave > Maim > Storm's Path.

You will not be comboing Heavy Strike > Fell Cleave > Storm's Path.

You will not be comboing Heavy Strike > Maim > Fell Cleave (Thus leading to the next GCD skill being Heavy Strike again)

The only time it "Replaces" another GCD action is specifically during a timed window. Which is mostly irrelevant because the majority of Warrior timed windows of burst damage are Inner Release and thus entirely Fell Cleaves. With outside of IR, it being Inner Chaos that is the action that will be doing the replacing of a GCD (Thus being less than a 900 potency gain - Not accounting for the fact that it is DCH)

I think you're drawing more from the verb that would normally be implied. You're still replacing the space of the GCD and I would argue that meets the definition of "replacing" that GCD just fine. Note that the object wasn't a "GCD skill" but the "GCD" itself. That doesn't mean you have to break its combo chain.

And all this hasn't even included Onslaught's massive enmity modifier. Though it will be irrelevant come Shadowbringers, it seems quite worth using Onslaught frequently for at present.

On topic:

I'd rather see Onslaught remain the same, Plunge remain the same, and Intervene trade its damage for suppression (creating a damage-dealt-absorption effect on the struck enemy equal to 200 of the PLD's potency) and have it similarly consume 20 Gauge. Distinct and more visibly balanced across the category (not that the category matters a lick to overall balance).

[Maneesha]

But maybe, just maybe, it might be a nice thing to support the other tanks in getting their issues fixed, instead of demanding buffs on a complete non-issue for a job that is grossly overpowered to begin with. And hey, I even did your math for you so that you don't have to.

1. thanks for the math
2.Nah, we are way to busy of thinking of ways how the devs can make us more overpowered, otherwise we will miss all those players who come to warrior threads or any other where warrior is mentioned and complain about how overpowered he is and be passively aggressive.

[Kalise]

I think you're drawing more from the verb that would normally be implied. You're still replacing the space of the GCD and I would argue that meets the definition of "replacing" that GCD just fine. Note that the object wasn't a "GCD skill" but the "GCD" itself. That doesn't mean you have to break its combo chain.

It's still only "Replacing" during a window of time.

Whether that window of time is a 10s period or an entire encounter.

Thus, if you want to accurately determine if it's "Replacing" an action, you would have to account for the specific boss, any downtime that it would generate, anytime you might need to use something that interrupts a combo such as Overpower (Not currently relevant, but worth noting in ShB given the apparent focus on AoE attacks) or even a ShB burst window that utilizes 2x Infuriate and IR that might cause you to drop your combo.

Since you can't just state that going Heavy Strike > Maim > Fell Cleave > Storm's Path is causing Fell Cleave to just "Replace" Storm's Path and so it's only now a 240 potency increase. Especially since... You still get the Storm's Path off anyway.

You'd have to factor in working from downtime where combo's drop off/when the boss dies and work backwards to see how many actions are replaced by "Naked" Fell Cleaves.