QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

[NyneSwordz]

I spent a couple hours last night working on my spreadsheet rotation. Xeno's comment and odd edits in that video around when he said the opening Onslaught was free had me curious. I think that one actually will be, I didn't use it in opening but if I got everything correct you end with 20 BG left after 2nd Trick Attack (assuming Trick is still where it is now, the only Onslaught I used was during IR and 2nd Trick window). I only got 90 sec in though and I want to at least go through the next IR to see how it all lines up, it may or may not be beneficial to zero out.

Long story short, still may need to use Onslaught here and there to keep from overcapping before a IR/Raid buff window.

I'll still be playing around with it in case I made any mistakes (likely)

I see. Yeah we'll see. Also I think Xeno when he said "free" he meant that infuriate recharges outside of combat, so you get 2 now, making the first onslaught or whatever beast gauge spender you use "free" relative to now where we only have 1 "charge" of infuriate in stormblood.

He did go on to say he sees no reason in it costing rage in ShB and that the rage cost was a relic of stormblood. He even suggested it giving rage.

I dont know about giving rage. I feel content with 2 charges of infuriate in ShB. But the cost is just janky and cumbersome imo. And it kinda seems like the whole infuriate and inner chaos mechanic was designed to get rid of the tedium of having to analyze and decide when to use onslaught to save a gcd and prevent overcapping or delaying a combo to fell cleave to prevent overcapping.

Seems like u just dump rage into fc and dont get close to overcapping if possible. I dunno.

I think itd be much simpler if the developers just made all 4 tank gap closers identical. They already made 3 identical. Might as well go all the way. I dont see a reason not to...

[Lyth]

If you made Onslaught identical to the existing gap closers, it would be a straight up nerf to WAR. That's fine if you want it.

But the idea of keeping Onslaught the way it is now, while removing the gauge cost, is simply unreasonable. There are two tank jobs at the moment which have serious problems, and WAR players are complaining that a trifling issue like this isn't skewed enough in WAR's favour. Quite frankly, I think it's disgusting.

[Izsha]

Lyth, you've been disgusted with wars talking about anything that isnt the pity party for drk for years. Get over it already. Players are free to talk about their mains class without your approval and doing so does not take away from your own issues. There are enough kilobytes of space on the internet to have some text threads for both.

[NyneSwordz]

If you made Onslaught identical to the existing gap closers, it would be a straight up nerf to WAR. That's fine if you want it.

But the idea of keeping Onslaught the way it is now, while removing the gauge cost, is simply unreasonable. There are two tank jobs at the moment which have serious problems, and WAR players are complaining that a trifling issue like this isn't skewed enough in WAR's favour. Quite frankly, I think it's disgusting.

First of all, nobody is asking for "keeping onslaught the way it is now" and removing the rage cost. At least I'm not. I'm just wondering why it can't just all be the same.

AND IF CAN'T ALL BE THE SAME, I was just asking if the developers would consider making Onslaught free OUTSIDE OF COMBAT, so that EASE OF USE would be pretty much the same across the tanks, while the IN COMBAT usage of the action, and therefore the current BALANCE REMAINS THE SAME. So I don't know why you're so hostile to my suggestion.

And even if the developers were to remove beast/rage cost altogether, how would it be a straight up nerf?

And I've asked people who have played war at the media tour, and they seem to agree that the rage cost seems unnecessary given the new mechanics in ShB.

And this may be trifling to you, but it's not to me. It smooths out the usage of the action and makes it more fun to use. It is a good QOL adjustment for me and probably many others who play War.

And I don't get your logic as to why it's "disgusting" to bring up a QOL issue for War. I don't think it would really impact tank balance very much if at all. And even if it did, it's not as if the developers can't handle multiple issues at once.

Why are you so hostile?

[NyneSwordz]

i think xeno's video suggested that infuriate charges even while out of combat.. so if that remains true you technically have a free infuriate before you ever pull and have onslaught available to you. i could be mistaken though.

Yeah that's very true! And I wouldn't even bring this up if it was still possible to use infuriate outside of combat. So, let's say you move to a new zone, you have to get into combat at least once before you can generate any rage for Onslaught. Yeah, sounds minor, but it really annoys me that I can't just use Onslaught right off the bat.

I also feel it just makes things easier just to have Onslaught on the new charge mechanic. One less rage/beast gauge cost to worry about. And of course, there's a debate as to whether the rage cost is even necessary in ShB given how infuriate works and ties with inner chaos/chaotic cyclone.

But I guess as an alternative to my original suggestion to making Onslaught free outside of combat, I wouldn't mind if they would just make it so that infuriate is usable outside of combat, but that the rage gain from infuriate is temporary and fades away if the warrior doesn't enter combat within, say, 15 or 30 seconds.

[Lyth]

I was on your side until about 4.2. I think a lot of people were. But then there was this big push from WAR mains to change Shake it off, which came at the expense of fixing DRK or even acknowledging that it was in a bad spot. Now you're doing it with Onslaught.

Other people are entitled to have an opinion of your conduct. Shame is an important self-regulator. It keeps you from being reprehensible and selfish. And if you don't have that self-regulation, then please allow the rest of us to assist you with this. The devs are clearly prioritising WAR issues at the expense of everyone else, so let's break this cycle from both ends. The hostility isn't just from me. Look around on the forums and on reddit. People are tired of this six year long favouritism. Even SCH didn't keep it up for this long.

Xeno is the one who has mentioned removing the rage cost on Onslaught. But it's also worth noting that he's the one who felt that Direct Hit and Crit made WAR dps optimisation too difficult, which is why a lot of things on WAR do both now. So this isn't about what is balanced so much as what is good for WAR.

If Onslaught was identical to the other tank gap closers, it would be flat out worse. The charge system doesn't give you two charges every 30 seconds. It just lets you hold one in reserve. So WAR still has the highest mobility out of any tank (double the mobility, in fact). The only difference is that outside of certain circumstances that grant a free Onslaught, it's designed to be a dps neutral mobility tool, rather than an oGCD potency gain.

So take your pick. Do you want double the mobility? Or do you want the removal of the gauge cost. Either is fine. Keep it as it is, with half the recast of the other tanks, or change it to be identical to the other tanks. What I don't want to see happen is for you to get the recast cost removed while keeping a 15s recast, and get yet another clear cut advantage over the other tanks.

I know it's kind of inevitable (this sort of decision-making always happens with the devs, as far as WAR is concerned), but I do think that the rest of us have the right to call you out on it.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said here.

[Novak_04]

I'd like to start off by apologizing for my actions recently. I have been unnecessarily rude and should not have been. I'm sorry for my part in fueling the tank-war fire.

Having said that:

Most of the issue non-warriors are having with warriors calling for changes on Onslaught is partly due to jealousy. With the revamp of the tank jobs, many were hoping for other tanks to get their chance in the spotlight, but it's not leaning that way. Warrior has a drawback with their gap closer... it's a decision-making mechanic. Do you want to do more dps or do you want to gtfo of the AoE that's about to hit you? Many -- myself included -- see this as someone who has everything handed to them asking for more. This is ONE drawback for Warrior.

With all the talk about SE's limited resources and how x can't happen because of funding and such, how can one justify making this "QoL" change for Warrior when there are other tanks that could use the attention? Dark Knights have an invuln with the potential to kill them, a raid wide magic-only defensive that's widely agreed to be lackluster at best, and Gunbreaker's dps is projected to be subpar by leaps and bounds (though, potencies are subject to change). I'm not saying you're unjustified in your request... rather, at this juncture, it's perceived as taking a mile when given an inch.

Lastly, this wouldn't be a QoL change for Warrior... a QoL change would be "changing the price of all items of the same type you have up on the market board at once." This would be an actual gameplay change. It would take away the entire decision making process from using Onslaught, leaving to free access, while the Beast Gauge is used solely for Fell Cleave.

[NyneSwordz]

I was on your side until about 4.2. I think a lot of people were. But then there was this big push from WAR mains to change Shake it off, which came at the expense of fixing DRK or even acknowledging that it was in a bad spot. Now you're doing it with Onslaught.

Other people are entitled to have an opinion of your conduct. Shame is an important self-regulator. It keeps you from being reprehensible and selfish. And if you don't have that self-regulation, then please allow the rest of us to assist you with this. The devs are clearly prioritising WAR issues at the expense of everyone else, so let's break this cycle from both ends. The hostility isn't just from me. Look around on the forums and on reddit. People are tired of this six year long favouritism. Even SCH didn't keep it up for this long.

Xeno is the one who has mentioned removing the rage cost on Onslaught. But it's also worth noting that he's the one who felt that Direct Hit and Crit made WAR dps optimisation too difficult, which is why a lot of things on WAR do both now. So this isn't about what is balanced so much as what is good for WAR.

If Onslaught was identical to the other tank gap closers, it would be flat out worse. The charge system doesn't give you two charges every 30 seconds. It just lets you hold one in reserve. So WAR still has the highest mobility out of any tank (double the mobility, in fact). The only difference is that outside of certain circumstances that grant a free Onslaught, it's designed to be a dps neutral mobility tool, rather than an oGCD potency gain.

So take your pick. Do you want double the mobility? Or do you want the removal of the gauge cost. Either is fine. Keep it as it is, with half the recast of the other tanks, or change it to be identical to the other tanks. What I don't want to see happen is for you to get the recast cost removed while keeping a 15s recast, and get yet another clear cut advantage over the other tanks.

I know it's kind of inevitable (this sort of decision-making always happens with the devs, as far as WAR is concerned), but I do think that the rest of us have the right to call you out on it.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said here.

(1) Shake off had to be changed because it was useless at launch. Literally. Useless. I don't remember anyone suggesting that it be changed to what it eventually became. So I'm not sure why you're even so mad at the PLAYERS for this.

(2) How do you know that the developers adjusted/fixed warriors AT THE EXPENSE of other tanks? How do you, as a MATTER OF FACT, know this? You don't. So stop assuming.

(3) You obviously haven't looked at Warrior changes in ShB, because if you did, you'd know that Onslaught is now 10 seconds. And if you did, you'd at least acknowledge that with the change to infuriate that the rage cost on Onslaught doesn't serve the purpose it does in Stormblood.

(4) Being on the charge system does ALLOW 2 gap closers every 30 seconds. Because, you'd use one, wait 15 seconds, use the other charge. And guess what happens after another 15 seconds? The first charge is now recharged, and you can use it again. So there. Yeah, no one says you should do that. But it does allow it doesn't it?

*EDIT: I looked at a war vid with Infuriate charges. Seems like there's only 1 timer if that makes any sense. Once the first charge is expended, the cooldown starts. Using the second charge while the timer is counting down doesn't create a separate countdown timer for the second charge. So this is my mistake. It's true that having charges DOES NOT allow 2 gap closers in 30 seconds.

(5) It's not your place to be shaming me or anyone else for that matter. Especially on a public forum and especially when legitimate and reasoned issues are being brought forth. If anyone should be ashamed, it's you for being so hateful.

(6) Don't lump all warrior mains into one please. I personally have nothing to do with whatever is upsetting you so much. So please, have some decency and control your hate.

(7) Potency isn't finalized. So any argument there is kind of moot. My suggestion has nothing to do with potency, and if it unbalanced dps somehow, there are other ways to adjust it - the rage cost does not have to stay simply because of potential changes to War dps.

(8) I agree that shame is a good conduct regulator. I hope you develop some sense of it so you can stop yourself from lashing out like this at a HUMAN BEING who had nothing to with whatever PERCEIVED injustice you suffered. Geezus almighty...

I'm gonna stop there because I don't want to get banned. If you want to continue lobbing insults, I mean "assisting," me by shaming me and calling me "disgusting" or "reprehensible" go right ahead.

[NyneSwordz]

[QUOTE=Novak_04;5005133]I'd like to start off by apologizing for my actions recently. I have been unnecessarily rude and should not have been. I'm sorry for my part in fueling the tank-war fire.

Having said that:

Most of the issue non-warriors are having with warriors calling for changes on Onslaught is partly due to jealousy. With the revamp of the tank jobs, many were hoping for other tanks to get their chance in the spotlight, but it's not leaning that way. Warrior has a drawback with their gap closer... it's a decision-making mechanic. Do you want to do more dps or do you want to gtfo of the AoE that's about to hit you? Many -- myself included -- see this as someone who has everything handed to them asking for more. This is ONE drawback for Warrior.

With all the talk about SE's limited resources and how x can't happen because of funding and such, how can one justify making this "QoL" change for Warrior when there are other tanks that could use the attention? Dark Knights have an invuln with the potential to kill them, a raid wide magic-only defensive that's widely agreed to be lackluster at best, and Gunbreaker's dps is projected to be subpar by leaps and bounds (though, potencies are subject to change). I'm not saying you're unjustified in your request... rather, at this juncture, it's perceived as taking a mile when given an inch.

[NyneSwordz]

I'd like to start off by apologizing for my actions recently. I have been unnecessarily rude and should not have been. I'm sorry for my part in fueling the tank-war fire.

Having said that:

Most of the issue non-warriors are having with warriors calling for changes on Onslaught is partly due to jealousy. With the revamp of the tank jobs, many were hoping for other tanks to get their chance in the spotlight, but it's not leaning that way. Warrior has a drawback with their gap closer... it's a decision-making mechanic. Do you want to do more dps or do you want to gtfo of the AoE that's about to hit you? Many -- myself included -- see this as someone who has everything handed to them asking for more. This is ONE drawback for Warrior.

With all the talk about SE's limited resources and how x can't happen because of funding and such, how can one justify making this "QoL" change for Warrior when there are other tanks that could use the attention? Dark Knights have an invuln with the potential to kill them, a raid wide magic-only defensive that's widely agreed to be lackluster at best, and Gunbreaker's dps is projected to be subpar by leaps and bounds (though, potencies are subject to change). I'm not saying you're unjustified in your request... rather, at this juncture, it's perceived as taking a mile when given an inch.

Lastly, this wouldn't be a QoL change for Warrior... a QoL change would be "changing the price of all items of the same type you have up on the market board at once." This would be an actual gameplay change. It would take away the entire decision making process from using Onslaught, leaving to free access, while the Beast Gauge is used solely for Fell Cleave.

There is no decision making process to Onslaught though, that's my point. It seems that was taken away in ShB. As for your hypothetical about getting out of danger or continuing dps, I don't think it works that way. With gap closers, I think it's more like "I need to move IN ORDER to dps." For example, situations where the boss suddenly moves a large distance and AOE's half the room, there is no choice but to gap close the boss which achieves both (1) getting out of danger and (2) allowing the tank to continue dps.

And I guess I worded it as a QOL adjustment, because it's not going to break the class if it doesn't get changed. But QOL doesn't equate to something "minor" or "trivial" to me. I've been wanting Onslaught to be free of rage cost since the very beginning of Stormblood.

It's been years.

I understand that the cost was there back in Stormblood because, among other reasons, it generated hate, Paladins didn't have a gap closer, and so the cost was there to differentiate or justify the difference between Onslaught and Plunge. Also to help dump range and prevent overcapping in certain instances and maximizing dps by saving a GCD.

All of those reasons for Onslaught to still have a rage cost seems to be gone now with ShB. Seems to be. I'm not sure. I'm just saying, based on what I've read, and the feedback I've received from asking people like Xeno and Merri, is that there are very little reason for Onslaught to still cost rage.

You may say what if the change affects War DPS? Potency? All of this is being adjusted now, and can simply be adjusted to take into account any effect making Onslaught free of rage cost would have.

And lastly, my original suggestion was simply to make Onslaught free OUTSIDE OF COMBAT. It wouldn't affect balance at all. Moreover, it's a small change. I can't imagine it having a huge cost on developer resource.

Gunbreaker seems amazingly fun from the feedback that I've read. I wouldn't worry about potency at all.

Dark has problems sure, but I heard they're amazingly fun as well. You're free to bring up any issues with Darks, and I get that you feel you haven't been heard, but I doubt, I seriously doubt, the resources spent on Warrior has any real effect or bearing on the developers work on Darks or perceived lack of attention to Dark problems.

Lastly, yeah I don't want to get into a discussion about War v. Dark balance, because that's not why I posted, and I don't want to veer off or have the thread which was supposed to be about a War issue be taken down this other, definitely unfruitful discussion topic. You're free to bring it up for sure, and I support you doing so. There's quite a few threads on it in the forum.

But yeah, if anyone has any good, specific feedback directly related to my suggestion I'd welcome it. Or any Wars out there who'd welcome this kind of change, be sure to chime in. I can't be the only one.