Kneejerk reaction to PLD changes.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

It may have been that I misread about RA but nonetheless changes that most likely we will be sitting on more gauge than we need to spend, and I mean sheltron mitigates more dmg and is more frequent to use than RI, so don't see there being a problem. And tbh, I genuinely feel you're overreacting to the nerf on cover, which was too broken in it's current iteration.
Tank stance significantly increase enmity so there should be no issue losing aggro so long as you actually press your AoE buttons in the right order.

[mrt617]

It may have been that I misread about RA but nonetheless changes that most likely we will be sitting on more gauge than we need to spend, and I mean sheltron mitigates more dmg and is more frequent to use than RI, so don't see there being a problem. And tbh, I genuinely feel you're overreacting to the nerf on cover, which was too broken in it's current iteration.
Tank stance significantly increase enmity so there should be no issue losing aggro so long as you actually press your AoE buttons in the right order.

It takes about 20 seconds to generate 50 gauge right now vs 25s for raw intution so it is a little better as long as you can auto-attack the boss. So we have it a little better there, but on top of that Warriors get Thrill of battle which not only boosts max hp by 20% it also heals and gives them a 20% boost to healing. They also have a free 1200 potency heal in equilibrium now. So they have an ability almost as good as sheltron plus 2 abilities we don't have. So in a vacuum the cover changes are no big deal, but to see how warriors mitigation got buffed while we got cover mitigation taken away as well as bulwark it seems like we are losing ground now when it comes to what we bring to the table in terms of single target mitigation.

[Derio]

OP, why did you oh so conveniently leave out:

-Divine Veil (10% HP Shield for party)
-Intervention (10% to target)
-Passage (15% to party)

...but then made sure to include all of the other tank's skills? Sounds like you're trying to stir the pot.

Xeno pointed out that divine veil is based on if the healers heal you. So proc based and not instant.

Intervention is nice but not better than gunbreaker 15% to target

Passage is 15% but animation lock while gunbreaker is not animation locked.

They should still be included like you said but they have their faults.

[Jeeqbit]

Warriors got a better version of intervention (nascent flash which reduces dmg by 10% and heals)

Meanwhile, Paladins' Intervention is enhanced by other cooldowns like Rampart or Sentinel and they have alternatives in Cover or Clemency if the other person is low on health. Nascent Flash is almost a cross between elements of Intervention, Clemency and Aurora, with Warrior's unique take on it.

Warrior's version is smart because Warrior is about vitality, self-heals and absorbing health from attacks, unlike Paladin that is about powerful mitigation and casting spells like Clemency. Warrior's kit isn't necessarily better, just different and each have different situations in which they will be most ideal.

a better version of veil (shake which has a lower cooldown and can be scaled up by sacrificing other abilities)

While it's difficult to argue that Paladin's is better, it's not necessarily problematic. A warrior might use theirs when people are at full health but about to get hit, while a paladin might use theirs when people are at low health, about to get healed and then take yet another heavy hit.

an equal version of sheltron (raw intuition which costs no gauge and can be used every 30s).

Paladin can use Sheltron twice in a row because of its 5 second cooldown, making it last a total of 12 seconds at full oath gauge if absolutely needed.

Plus on top of that they get Thrill of battle which heals them by 20%, increases their max hp by 20%, and increases incoming healing by 20%.

Let's be real. Paladin has enough defenses and healing tools and won't have any problems.

On top of that they get equilibrium which is a free heal ogcd.

Warrior has to settle for only being able to do that every 60 seconds, while Paladin can pretty much spam Clemency on themselves all day long, the flexibility of which is very useful, especially when everyone decides to wipe in O12 so you have to solo the end of it.

Paladin might not have an oGCD heal, but to make that the case they would have to homogenize the tanks, something people are already complaining has occured too much. I suspect that whether they homogenize or not, someone will criticise them.

They would also have to trample on the idea of paladin being partly a spell caster, which for me is important and part of what I enjoy most about paladin.

[mrt617]

Meanwhile, Paladins' Intervention is enhanced by other cooldowns like Rampart or Sentinel and they have alternatives in Cover or Clemency if the other person is low on health. Nascent Flash is almost a cross between elements of Intervention, Clemency and Aurora, with Warrior's unique take on it.

Warrior's version is smart because Warrior is about vitality, self-heals and absorbing health from attacks, unlike Paladin that is about powerful mitigation and casting spells like Clemency. Warrior's kit isn't necessarily better, just different and each have different situations in which they will be most ideal.

Nascent Flash now that I think about it is probably even with intervention because the healing won't be that much, but also at the same time it's very rare for a Paladin to use a rampart or sentinel with an intervention because we would be saving it for tank busters at least in Savage content.

While it's difficult to argue that Paladin's is better, it's not necessarily problematic. A warrior might use theirs when people are at full health but about to get hit, while a paladin might use theirs when people are at low health, about to get healed and then take yet another heavy hit.

In Savage content they are split between raid wides that go out. So one raid wide would get a shake for everyone and for the next one the Paladin would let the healer know that he has popped veil and the healer would use a heal to pop it. So in general they are used the same at least in difficult content.

Paladin can use Sheltron twice in a row because of its 5 second cooldown, making it last a total of 12 seconds at full oath gauge if absolutely needed.

If fights stay the same I doubt a Paladin would ever do that unless there are 2 tank busters in close proximity. Sheltron is a little better than Raw intuition as long as there aren't long breaks where the boss can't be auto-attacked.

Let's be real. Paladin has enough defenses and healing tools and won't have any problems.

Yes I'm sure all tanks won't have any problems clearing content. That's not the point. Paladin tools are getting nerfed overall while others especially warriors are getting big buffs.

Warrior has to settle for only being able to do that every 60 seconds, while Paladin can pretty much spam Clemency on themselves all day long, the flexibility of which is very useful, especially when everyone decides to wipe in O12 so you have to solo the end of it.

Yes spamming clemency is great but it will kill your dps. maybe you can save a spirits within so you don't lose too much, but messing up your rotation and missing your req windows is going to be very hurtful. Warriors can heal themselves whenever for no loss in dps. That's comparing an apple and an orange.

Paladin might not have an oGCD heal, but to make that the case they would have to homogenize the tanks, something people are already complaining has occured too much. I suspect that whether they homogenize or not, someone will criticise them.

They would also have to trample on the idea of paladin being partly a spell caster, which for me is important and part of what I enjoy most about paladin.

In no way am I advocating for the homogenizing of the tank classes. I just feel Paladin's tanking tools have gotten overall nerfed while Warrior has gotten super buffed. I love the overall feel of Paladin and I can't wait to try out the new abilities I just don't like that some of our abilities have gone away or gotten nerfed while other tank classes especially warrior have been buffed.

[Cabalabob]

And tbh, I genuinely feel you're overreacting to the nerf on cover, which was too broken in it's current iteration.

Care to elaborate on why it’s an overreaction? I’ve said twice it did need a nerf, but it got nerfed far too much. It has very little practical use with the changes shown, at this point it is just there for authenticities sake and I don’t think we’d miss it if it was just removed entirely with what they’ve done to it.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Care to elaborate on why it’s an overreaction? I’ve said twice it did need a nerf, but it got nerfed far too much. It has very little practical use with the changes shown, at this point it is just there for authenticities sake and I don’t think we’d miss it if it was just removed entirely with what they’ve done to it.

Simply enough we won't need cover every 2 minutes on CD, we can easily plan our gauge around the use of it, like all CDs should be planned, not an "oh, shit" button, we also have the 20% DR. So older content we will still have SB cover, while in ShB we don't know how fights will play out, so really is an overreaction.

[Big-Isaac]

My kneejerk reaction is "oh crud, nothing has changed"
It's still the same exact rotation, except you substitute 1 of your RA strings with spamming a different button 3 times. It seems every bit as static and uninteractive as it was in SB

I hope I'm wrong, and spamming those Atonements is actually SOMEHOW really fun, but it does look like PLD is dead to me again >.<

[Cabalabob]

we won't need cover every 2 minutes on CD, we can easily plan our gauge around the use of it

Except we won’t want to use it ever in a planned way. There is no reason to use it because it offers no benefits outside of emergencies, which you can’t plan for.

like all CDs should be planned, not an "oh, shit" button

It serves no purpose as a planned CD outside of unconventional strategies because any damage taken by someone other than a tank won’t require cover or PLD will be mandatory. So “Oh sh**” button or niche conditions is all it has left.

we also have the 20% DR. So older content we will still have SB cover, while in ShB we don't know how fights will play out

As I said before this is false. The 20% DR is baseline on all tanks now. Cover is offering no mitigation itself, only your inherent tankiness, which the other tanks share, meaning you’re adding no benefits with cover when covering another tank, which was the main reason it was so good in SB.

The reason cover was strong in SB is because you could cover the MT in a planned way and it brought mitigation ITSELF. The fact that it added MORE mitigation is what made it better than a tank swap. Without that additional mitigation over the tank baseline you are basically spending 50 gauge on a 12s provoke. So there is no reason to plan around the use of cover, leaving it as a niche or an emergency button only.

But an emergency button can’t have a cost, because it means we now have to sit on 50 gauge at all times in case someone needs a cover, no one is going to do that. Leaving it with only the niche situation of unconventional strategies.

It doesn’t matter how fights play out in shadowbringers when the effects of cover are analytically useless. So unless it changes before release it is not an overreaction to say it will never be used outside of niche circumstances.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Cover can definitely be used in a planned way. It was used in t13 on a melee for the earthshakers, stopped the puddles from forming on the ground and let the melee continue dpsing.

Can't say for the omega raids, as I took a break from tanking with 4.0