Why are people calling it “casualbringers” now?

[Physic]

First off, your statistic about tank damage is outright false. Look at FFlogs for any encounter in the game and you'll see that it's closer to about 75%.

Second... I... what are you even saying? What does a tank's core GCD loop have anything to do with encounter design, or how engaging the enemy is? We already know that we're still keeping a silence/interrupt spell going into ShB, so messing with enemy channels is going to remain something we can do. We definitely still have self-applied regens and mitigation cooldowns. Hell, one of Gunbreaker's combos applies a regen on itself right in the gameplay video.

The only thing they did was streamline stances, and make it so that Damage = Aggro. I don't get what makes this a 'wrong direction to go' for the other parts of tank gameplay.

Also, I'm not going to get into this whole discussion, but you talking about how tanks don't 'interact' with the bosses, or mob control not being important, is a surefire way to tell me that you don't do Savage.

what new skills do you have for monster control.

he also never said that damage is going to be the key determiner of enmity, he implied you will get enmity with every dps action you take. Since people will pretty much always be making dps actions at a set rate, this implies everyone who hits buttons will generate similar enmity.

i never said tanks dont interact with bosses.
first i said encounters, which includes bosses, groups of monsters, monster behaviors as a group etc.

second i never said they dont interact, i said he never mentions increasing the value of interaction or mitigation in terms of what the tanks will now be able to focus more on.


look if main tanks are happy with this, its fine, i only tank on the side when my group needs it, but i wouldnt be surprised if many tank type mentality players wouldnt prefer the metric of a good tank be less about their max dps, and more about how well they mitigate and control the monster.

[Duskane]

honestly if you play FF14 for a hardcore mmo experience probably wasn't meant to be in the first place

[van_arn]

I only see benefits in removing the emphasis on the support meta. Optimal groups were a bit too static across a wide variety of content, so ideally players looking to be at the bleeding edge will need to optimize on a fight by fight basis now.

That'll make some players mad, perhaps those that rolled flavor of the month because a guide told them it was "necessary for raiding" but the additional flexibility and possibility for deeper optimizations is much more interesting than it was previously.

[tinythinker]

I only see benefits in removing the emphasis on the support meta. Optimal groups were a bit too static across a wide variety of content, so ideally players looking to be at the bleeding edge will need to optimize on a fight by fight basis now.

That'll make some players mad, perhaps those that rolled flavor of the month because a guide told them it was "necessary for raiding" but the additional flexibility and possibility for deeper optimizations is much more interesting than it was previously.

But.. but Arn... how will they instantly show that they're the try-hardiest now? Have you no pity? No empathy for their suffering? That's so cold...

[Slirith]

The people whining about it becoming casual somehow have seen the future.

[SargentToughie]

what new skills do you have for monster control.

We keep our silence. And Yoshida went out of his way to explicitly show us that interruptible abilities are getting the Esuna treatment. If anything, that added transparency will allow them to be even more engaged with it than in the past. IIRC, the only big silences in the game right now are the Stoneskins in O7S and in Seiryu Extreme

he also never said that damage is going to be the key determiner of enmity, he implied you will get enmity with every dps action you take. Since people will pretty much always be making dps actions at a set rate, this implies everyone who hits buttons will generate similar enmity.

What? You do know that in this game, you get enmity by doing damage, right?

he also never said that damage is going to be the key determiner of enmity, he implied you will get enmity with every dps action you take. Since people will pretty much always be making dps actions at a set rate, this implies everyone who hits buttons will generate similar enmity.

i never said tanks dont interact with bosses.
first i said encounters, which includes bosses, groups of monsters, monster behaviors as a group etc.

Because packs of dungeon mobs have never been interesting for anybody. You just round them all up, slap on some mitigation, and AoE them down. Admittedly, doing hero pulls is one of the more fun parts of tanking, so I hope that doesn't go away.

And basic level boss designs are never going to require all that much complex tank positioning. If they did, they'd turn pretty nightmarish pretty fast because most people in this game are idiots, tanks included. I don't expect that to change all that much.

look if main tanks are happy with this, its fine, i only tank on the side when my group needs it, but i wouldnt be surprised if many tank type mentality players wouldnt prefer the metric of a good tank be less about their max dps, and more about how well they mitigate and control the monster.

If you're not a tank main, why are you even putting a voice in this discussion? I've been tanking off and on since ARR. I've tanked content at every level for the last 5 years. Tanked in Coil, tanked in Alexander and Omega Savage. Tanked every possible rotation of EXR dungeons since Expert Roulette became a thing, and I think these changes are amazing.

If you're not qualified to talk about how tanks operate at a high level, don't try and talk about how high level tanks play.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

You said that, having removed enmity skills, it would now be nigh impossible for good tanks to distinguish themselves from bad tanks.

I then fully disagreed because, whatever the reason for the removal of enmity skills, a good tank will still be quite able to distinguish oneself from a bad tank.

[Dyvid]

This is a bit off-topic, so it’s under a spoiler for those not interested.

DoTs were more than just extended—they also have higher potencies in their current form compared to the previous ones. The DoT extension allows for more presses of other GCDs aside from IJ—that said, it also comes with potency losses if one snapshotted DoTs too early. DoTs snapshotted at ~9 seconds or below did not result in PPS lost (it’s basically a “free IJ”), but anything above that did. I cannot definitively speak on how this compares to HW BRD as I only started raiding back at the end of Creator and do not have on hand any sort of HW BRD theorycrafting to speak on what amount of potency was lost if one got too IJ happy and snapshotted too early.

If you just want to know which one I prefer, I liked them both to be honest: 18s and 30s. I’m more used to the 30-second DoTs now, so I prefer them more for that reason, I guess. I didn’t really find it as “making the job easier”, nor as an inherently good or inherently bad decision. I just liked the idea of getting stronger DoTs, because it gave me more power without really adding buttons, and it built off of the previous iterations.


IJ optimization is getting into min-max territory though—this is not something that players who are not looking to raid or optimize their job should worry about, which is why I added that I don’t think it’s being done to narrow the skill gap so much as it’s the developers’ answer to the power creep BRD saw throughout Stormblood (BRD got stronger and stronger each tier because of the increase in the amount of crit we could stack). If they changed Repertoire BECAUSE of this desire to close the gap, then it is a silly decision, as this is not something needed for most content but something that BRDs find fun to do when they min-max.

I don’t know why you’re bring up letting one’s DoTs fall off—you will still lose just as much if you let them fall off because you lose access to Repertoire entirely, plus you’ll have to waste 2 Heavy Shot GCDs reapplying them so there’s potency lost there, in addition to every tick you missed. That doesn’t have to do with IJ optimization though—IJ optimization is about snapshotting raid buffs onto your DoTs to buff them and the damage they deal (as well as maximizing your proc chances in current BRD); not just snapshotting them every ~28 seconds. That’s just Iron Jaws/BRD 101.


I also do not think that IJ min-maxing is a source of some HUGE damage gap that demands a narrowing of the skill gap—the largest damage gaps are probably from BRDs that improperly utilize their songs and personal buffs. I see a lot of BRDs that do not use their songs at all. I see a lot that do not think about when Raging Strikes would be the best used, or who use Barrage outside of RS, or who wait for a Refulgent Arrow to Barrage instead of taking Empyreal under RS instead. I also see BRDs that Barrage just...anything. These are all things that can be rectified with a little guidance and teaching from those willing to learn. Those unwilling to learn will still do poorly—but the game shouldn’t change to help them, in my opinion. Which was the crux of my entire argument in this thread.


All-in-all, I’m not sure why you’re wanting to get into IJ optimization because I only said this may simplify BRD. I never said that it was what they were definitively doing to simplify the job as they claimed. So this aside is quite a bit off-topic. My initial reply to you was really only to say that the removal of the crit reliance from Repertoire was a confirmed change, not a maybe. We don’t know how this will affect BRD—if Repertoire will just be a trait thing or if it will still be tied to having DoTs on the boss in some fashion.

The reason I used BRD's DoT Maintenance is to highlight the differences of making something less punishing to use and simplifying it out right. Currently if I don't have DoTs applied, my songs won't proc their additional effect which is a big no no for BRD performance. You say it's a flat rate proc now and I have no reason to doubt you, this makes it easier to play but to optimize I'm still required to manage Dots. If they would have simply removed DoTs all together, would/will be a extreme version of simplifying a job. The author of the thread is making out like they are gutting the jobs to the point that's its too easy, or extreme simplification as I pointed out by just removing DoTs. I don't believe this is the case. Sorry I still don't know BRD extremely well because I main SMN and can only really speak too that.

...Why should we wait to comment on things we already know in entirety? Sure, we don't know how the job will play on the whole, but we do absolutely know what, for example, having no effect between Crit-bonus windows and cpm will have. We know exactly what effect, say, Mage's Ballad no longer resetting Bloodletter would have on the feel of that song. What aspects we do know we should feel free to comment on in the scope we're aware of them. We've already seen time and time again what "waiting for the full gameplay" does for our prospects for timely fixes or improvements, how little the skill mechanics actually change in the interim, and the delays that waiting faces unless a limelight job of a given patch.

Because the only thing we officially know is what was said in the Live Letter, leaks whether true or not are still rumors until confirmed. And like I said, i'm going to the first to complain about BRD song not providing a passive buff to the party but that makes it fill like a Bard in 4.0, but I want to see exactly what it is before I can give change suggestions.

[Physic]

I only see benefits in removing the emphasis on the support meta. Optimal groups were a bit too static across a wide variety of content, so ideally players looking to be at the bleeding edge will need to optimize on a fight by fight basis now.

That'll make some players mad, perhaps those that rolled flavor of the month because a guide told them it was "necessary for raiding" but the additional flexibility and possibility for deeper optimizations is much more interesting than it was previously.

uhh, what you are saying would make sense, if they were solving the lack of difference in party composition by making new interesting synergies, but the goal is to reduce synergies and unique abilities, so that all classes have the same contributions.

with tanking and healing, and suppirt other than dancer.

basically the solution they choae is for every role to have the same, or very similar capabilities and outputs. Lets make it clear, there was no job incapable of clearing top end content, there were some that were better, or had strong synergy, so this always going to be an issue as long as any class is even a little bit better than others, which will always be the case, unless every class is exactly the same.

[LastLevel]

Everything has been dumbed down including crafting. So it’s only natural that other aspects of the game would eventually meet the same fate. SE just doesn’t seem to want this game to be difficult anymore.