Why are people calling it “casualbringers” now?

[HyoMinPark]

This is a bit off-topic, so it’s under a spoiler for those not interested.

Well since you main BRD and we are talking about making things simpler, was extending the DoTs in 4.0 good or bad in you opinion? While I'm still leveling BRD, I notice the extension is helpful because it lets me focus more on keeping straight shot buff up, songs up, and focus on my shot weaving. Now you say Repertoire is confirmed as a flat rate, okay but a good BRD is still going to need to make sure your DoTs are up, you just won't be penalized as heavy if you miss it during on rotation. Now if they remove DoTs all together that would simplifying the job. Trust me, I don't agree with everything SE has said like removing Crit+ party buff from songs and will be the first one at launch asking for them to add another buff to replace it. The point I'm trying to stress is patience and wait until the 29 for first hand experience and then launch so we can actually see how it pans out.

DoTs were more than just extended—they also have higher potencies in their current form compared to the previous ones. The DoT extension allows for more presses of other GCDs aside from IJ—that said, it also comes with potency losses if one snapshotted DoTs too early. DoTs snapshotted at ~9 seconds or below did not result in PPS lost (it’s basically a “free IJ”), but anything above that did. I cannot definitively speak on how this compares to HW BRD as I only started raiding back at the end of Creator and do not have on hand any sort of HW BRD theorycrafting to speak on what amount of potency was lost if one got too IJ happy and snapshotted too early.

If you just want to know which one I prefer, I liked them both to be honest: 18s and 30s. I’m more used to the 30-second DoTs now, so I prefer them more for that reason, I guess. I didn’t really find it as “making the job easier”, nor as an inherently good or inherently bad decision. I just liked the idea of getting stronger DoTs, because it gave me more power without really adding buttons, and it built off of the previous iterations.


IJ optimization is getting into min-max territory though—this is not something that players who are not looking to raid or optimize their job should worry about, which is why I added that I don’t think it’s being done to narrow the skill gap so much as it’s the developers’ answer to the power creep BRD saw throughout Stormblood (BRD got stronger and stronger each tier because of the increase in the amount of crit we could stack). If they changed Repertoire BECAUSE of this desire to close the gap, then it is a silly decision, as this is not something needed for most content but something that BRDs find fun to do when they min-max.

I don’t know why you’re bring up letting one’s DoTs fall off—you will still lose just as much if you let them fall off because you lose access to Repertoire entirely, plus you’ll have to waste 2 Heavy Shot GCDs reapplying them so there’s potency lost there, in addition to every tick you missed. That doesn’t have to do with IJ optimization though—IJ optimization is about snapshotting raid buffs onto your DoTs to buff them and the damage they deal (as well as maximizing your proc chances in current BRD); not just snapshotting them every ~28 seconds. That’s just Iron Jaws/BRD 101.


I also do not think that IJ min-maxing is a source of some HUGE damage gap that demands a narrowing of the skill gap—the largest damage gaps are probably from BRDs that improperly utilize their songs and personal buffs. I see a lot of BRDs that do not use their songs at all. I see a lot that do not think about when Raging Strikes would be the best used, or who use Barrage outside of RS, or who wait for a Refulgent Arrow to Barrage instead of taking Empyreal under RS instead. I also see BRDs that Barrage just...anything. These are all things that can be rectified with a little guidance and teaching from those willing to learn. Those unwilling to learn will still do poorly—but the game shouldn’t change to help them, in my opinion. Which was the crux of my entire argument in this thread.


All-in-all, I’m not sure why you’re wanting to get into IJ optimization because I only said this may simplify BRD. I never said that it was what they were definitively doing to simplify the job as they claimed. So this aside is quite a bit off-topic. My initial reply to you was really only to say that the removal of the crit reliance from Repertoire was a confirmed change, not a maybe. We don’t know how this will affect BRD—if Repertoire will just be a trait thing or if it will still be tied to having DoTs on the boss in some fashion.

[Shurrikhan]

what good tanks? tanking will be automatic now. Good tanks will be doing tighter dps rotations? Is that supposed to be how tanks show thier skills? keep in mind tanks will likely still be a low dps job, therefore the difference between a good and bad tank will be minimal

Umm, what?

Enmity maintenance is generally the smallest aspect of difficulty on any tank in any game that uses threat (enmity) tables. It's literally use enough of X (otherwise wasteful) type of skill over time to maintain lead threat.

Best allowing for raid damage through positioning, personal mitigation, raid mitigation, and interrupts, and the tank's own personal damage, have each been much larger factors in being a good tank.

Well, the devs are doing this because players are rejecting jobs because they do not have the same capabilities... So blame the players.

More false ultimatums to SE's rescue. I'm not extremely offended by the homogeneity thus far, or at least no more than since Heavensward, but this excuse is bogus.

You can have diversity without obviously imbalancing player metrics for personal merit. SE's designs very much allowed for these community interactions; they should not be held completely inculpable in them. Nor should they be so quick to throw in the towel and reduce the slate to ground zero if/when they finally perceive community misconceptions and/or metric biases (i.e. carrying more about fflogs percentiles than the actual clear speed or likelihood of success, because it's your percentiles that can more easily get you into another static) to be a problem they should have done something about.

[ForteNightshade]

That is indeed what they said... over a year and a half ago. Applying that reason in reducing it from 15% to 10% is not necessarily the same that would be relevant to removing it completely.

Moreover, I never said Heavy Thrust had an impact on Skill Speed itself. (After all, since ARR, nothing can affect Skill Speed, only Attack Speed.)

I said it affects which Skill Speeds are viable (or at least less punished for having in excess). Without Heavy Thrust, you can just keep throwing in more combos over the course of a fight, meaning that Skill Speed at least has some advantage. With Heavy Thrust, you can only benefit from Skill Speed when it is great enough to provide 3 to 5 (now 6) additional GCDs per 30 seconds, because you'd otherwise let Heavy Thrust fade during/over a vital GCD(s).

何が「減らした」のかは、オーディオが悪すぎて聞こえなかったが、「Heavy Thrust」自体は、一回しか話さなかったので本音かどうかはまだ分からない。

We've heard only a single line about Heavy Thrust. That's not exactly a large enough sample to say whether its content was meant as exemplar of general changes relevant to that bullet of the PPT or the sole or even primary reason for such a change. It's nothing new for them to go back to discuss changes met with any criticism and provide an entirely different reason... which itself may then be either a more detailed explanation or CYA re-spins. *Shrug* All I can say is that removing it now seems to fit now more than ever, and it certainly was not the only change they mentioned in making DRG "easier to use". Heck, they spent more time just talking about how the dives would be faster, as if that were a significant factor in ease of play (which... would better allows them to be single-weaved at higher speeds, but probably would do little for their double-weaving).

... literally none of this has anything to do with the initial argument. We weren't discussing Heavy Thrust's possible removal in Shadowbringers but the nerf to its original 15% buff in Stormblood being a direct example of catering towards players who can't be bothered to learn how the job works. No one said removing Heavy Thrust as a whole makes Dragoon easier. I have no idea where you're getting this from.

[Ayer2015]

More false ultimatums to SE's rescue. I'm not extremely offended by the homogeneity thus far, or at least no more than since Heavensward, but this excuse is bogus.

You can have diversity without obviously imbalancing player metrics for personal merit. SE's designs very much allowed for these community interactions; they should not be held completely inculpable in them.

They said as much. At no point in that post did I indicate I agree with it.

[Awha]

SE has already set a precedent that if a jobs rotation has too much depth they will adjust to make it less punishing. So on paper the changes to tank mean that yes they can focus on making each tank have a unique play style and feel, which in terms of power fantasy they very well may be able to obtain, but in terms of long term play? Complexly for me is what makes a job enjoyable to play over the long haul, putting in the time to optimize the rotation, personally I do not see SE changing boss encounters to place more responsibility on the tanks in terms of positioning. Cool down usage is more or less mapped out for each encounter. Oddly enough the most fun I have had with tanking / any role really is optimizing dps uptime.

That is my fear, but maybe SE will change their encounter design for the better.

[Shurrikhan]

... literally none of this has anything to do with the initial argument. We weren't discussing Heavy Thrust's possible removal in Shadowbringers but the nerf to its original 15% buff in Stormblood being a direct example of catering towards players who can't be bothered to learn how the job works. No one said removing Heavy Thrust as a whole makes Dragoon easier. I have no idea where you're getting this from.

Ahh, my mistake. I jumped-to-quote one too few times.

[SargentToughie]

tanks generally do half the dps of a dps class, even in pure dps stance.

I personally may have found tanking to be kinda meh, and the fact that i had to give half my skills to managing enmity, when it honestly didnt seem to matter. But i am generally more dps focused.

What about the guys who wanted more mob control, more interactive enemy/player interactions? For the monster to be a threat that required them to pay attention and react? Clutch use of mitigation?

it just seems like for people who actually prefer contrOl/mitigation this might be the wrong direction to go.


if they are simplifying enmity, and are making active mitigation/recovery more important, thats great, but that doesnt seem to be what he suggested in the video

First off, your statistic about tank damage is outright false. Look at FFlogs for any encounter in the game and you'll see that it's closer to about 75%.

Second... I... what are you even saying? What does a tank's core GCD loop have anything to do with encounter design, or how engaging the enemy is? We already know that we're still keeping a silence/interrupt spell going into ShB, so messing with enemy channels is going to remain something we can do. We definitely still have self-applied regens and mitigation cooldowns. Hell, one of Gunbreaker's combos applies a regen on itself right in the gameplay video.

The only thing they did was streamline stances, and make it so that Damage = Aggro. I don't get what makes this a 'wrong direction to go' for the other parts of tank gameplay.

Also, I'm not going to get into this whole discussion, but you talking about how tanks don't 'interact' with the bosses, or mob control not being important, is a surefire way to tell me that you don't do Savage.

[Taramin]

I don't see the issue, TWELVE FORBID they make it easier/more attractive for people to give tanking/healing a go.

[Physic]

Umm, what?

Enmity maintenance is generally the smallest aspect of difficulty on any tank in any game that uses threat (enmity) tables. It's literally use enough of X (otherwise wasteful) type of skill over time to maintain lead threat.

Best allowing for raid damage through positioning, personal mitigation, raid mitigation, and interrupts, and the tank's own personal damage, have each been much larger factors in being a good tank.

nothing he said in the video implied they were removing enmity in favor of that type of thing. other than personal dmg.

Positioning is an encounter design thing, and this game hasnt seemed to be trying to increase positioning's importance.

they seem to be making personal mitigation more uniform, and simplified, sheltron lasts longer, lower potency for example.

no new interupts added, and as always interupts not being a focus was more about encounter design than skill design, that said, if interupts matter more, and are something tanks can focus on, pld will be ahead of the game.
which leads to the other factor, they clearly want tanks to have similar capabilities, so that every tank is equally valued, This implies if gunbreaker primarily focuses on dps, with a few mitigative abilities, so will the other tanks.

we will see, but nothing in the video he said implied that tanking will be more complex in other ways. He literally says now they can focus more on their dps abilities. He could have said, now we can add more mitigation to certain skills, or we can lower cooldowns and have more active blocking. Or, tanks will now take less dmg if they are 15 degrees to the right of an enemy. Or that they were removing the stun/pacify/silence limits, and interupting actions will be more key to tank survival.


all of this could be the case, but you would think they would mention that was in their thought process. From what he said in the video, tank stance was removed because it made the gap between a good and bad player greater, (mostly in terms of dps) and enimity combos were boring, and now they can enhance dps combos fun.

seems like the focus of tank changes is more accesibility, more uniformity, and more interesting dps focus, based on what he talked about

[Crushnight]

So I'm a bit curious here, a lot of people on the forums/reddit/etc say the majority of the player base is bad and they don't want to play with them so SE takes steps so bad players are well... less bad, this makes people unhappy, so whats the resolution here? Making bad players frustrated and just quitting the game? Booting bad players everywhere they are? It seems lowering the skill gap is the best possible solution here.

Lowering the skill gap is not a good solution as you want the players that are putting more effort into learning their jobs rotation more optimally to feel rewarded in doing so, the less the gap is the less rewarding it feels and it will start breeding complacency as why bother doing that effort for low gains.

Bad players (at least for me) are the ones who are willingly too lazy to try and improve themselves whether through gear or skill when they know they are playing/geared worse than the content they are trying to do would allow

The solution is to make content REQUIRE learning before you can move on.
Don't lower the quality of players by making it easier, weed out the bad players by expecting them to do more.

Putting up a gate that says "learn your class, or you're stuck" is a good way to make people learn.

The gates were meant to be the solo instances that are put through story stuff like Will of the Moon/Last instance of SB, the problem with these 'gates' are that they give echo after a certain amount of failures because of this there is no hard message from the developers saying you need to preform to a certain standard

As for simplification in general aspects seem to have been simplified but other things may not have been we do not know we'll have to wait for more info before can actually make the claim that everything has been simplified. For now though look at dnc it has multiple things they have to be aware of, their partner, their number gauge, their dance timer all of this while trying to put out dps so it may be simple in practice as we don't really know yet but on paper it seems more complex than some other jobs