Why are people calling it “casualbringers” now?

[SargentToughie]

it definitely was pretty easy, but now its even moreso. I get it, if tanking is complex, you have more failure and headaches in groups, but i think people pick tanks because they want to focus on mitigation and controlling the enemy, instead of dps, no?

For that type of player, is doing more dps that entertaining? even if it is, is there enough feedback on dps for a tank to be satisfied by seeing dps go up? is doing 15% more dps entertaining, when your dps contribution is minimal?

perhaps they will increase tank dps, but then, how is tanking a different playstyle than dps? We have to see more information of course, but what he showed, and the type of things he said are worrisome

You keep using the word 'minimal' to describe tank damage. Stop it. Tanks can unleash some serious pain right now, and that's not likely to change too dramatically. I guarantee you that unless they do something really dramatic, my Gunbreaker will still be able to out-perform a bad DPS throughout most content.

Besides, what would you have preferred? Contrary to what others have tried to argue in these forums, aggro management is NOT FUN. Me going back into tank stance for another Butcher's Block combo because the RDM can't find Diversion isn't interesting gameplay, it's arbitrary garbage that's keeping me from doing the things I want to do. Even worse if you're PLD or DRK and you lose out on MP or blood because of it. Every enmity combo you throw out is lost potential to activate the fun parts of your job, period. And the game changing that is a good thing.

Besides, with explicit enmity combos gone, it unlocks a lot of weaponskill budget to make tank DPS rotations more engaging. What's not to like about that? Tanks are still going to be in the front of the bosses, and they still have skills that focus on mitigation and defense. They just also do those while the core gameplay loop focuses around doing the optimal amount of damage, at the same time. Your optimal damage will result in optimal mitigation, and optimal sustain, which is a vastly healthier playstyle than we have right now.

We finally get to have our cake and eat it too. It's amazing.

[Shurrikhan]

The devs outright said the changes to Heavy Thrust were to account for the number of players who kept forgetting/not applying the buff, which impacted their damage. Furthermore, Heavy Thrust had no impact whatsoever on DRG's Skill Speed. It was entirely due to buff alignments from other jobs, it's own oGCDs and the fact it double weaves.

That is indeed what they said... over a year and a half ago. Applying that reason in reducing it from 15% to 10% is not necessarily the same that would be relevant to removing it completely.

Moreover, I never said Heavy Thrust had an impact on Skill Speed itself. (After all, since ARR, nothing can affect Skill Speed, only Attack Speed.)

I said it affects which Skill Speeds are viable (or at least less punished for having in excess). Without Heavy Thrust, you can just keep throwing in more combos over the course of a fight, meaning that Skill Speed at least has some advantage. With Heavy Thrust, you can only benefit from Skill Speed when it is great enough to provide 3 to 5 (now 6) additional GCDs per 30 seconds, because you'd otherwise let Heavy Thrust fade during/over a vital GCD(s).

何が「減らした」のかは、オーディオが悪すぎて聞こえなかったが、「Heavy Thrust」自体は、一回しか話さなかったので本音かどうかはまだ分からない。

We've heard only a single line about Heavy Thrust. That's not exactly a large enough sample to say whether its content was meant as exemplar of general changes relevant to that bullet of the PPT or the sole or even primary reason for such a change. It's nothing new for them to go back to discuss changes met with any criticism and provide an entirely different reason... which itself may then be either a more detailed explanation or CYA re-spins. *Shrug* All I can say is that removing it now seems to fit now more than ever, and it certainly was not the only change they mentioned in making DRG "easier to use". Heck, they spent more time just talking about how the dives would be faster, as if that were a significant factor in ease of play (which... would better allows them to be single-weaved at higher speeds, but probably would do little for their double-weaving).

[Souljacker]

I think it's hilarious that folks are complaining that somehow fewer buttons to press means the game is being 'dumbed down'. Some of the most challenging games ever created didn't have a 2.5sec global... including FF games.

This game? If you can memorize a pattern, you can succeed at a fight. The game needs to be FUN first and foremost. SE looked at the design and saw some ways to improve it. I mean, how many buttons do we REALLY need? There was a conversation in another thread not so long ago about the skill bloat - too many situational skills, skills that needed to be on the bar for easy access so you don't have to scroll menus, even more skills because they think this active duty button is somehow... I don't even know what they thought THAT brought to the game... but it's button after button after button. Then they added XI-style grind content where it really showed how much they'd let the skill creep get out of hand, and they are addressing it.

Folks, it doesn't make the game less challenging because you can now reach the relevant skills without using multiple shift\ctrl modifiers. This frees the developers up to worry more about the encounters themselves and making us strategize using the abilities we DO have more. The game keeps moving forward. They can't just keep adding and adding and adding. Some stuff had to get cut.

And every other game on the planet does it too.

[Physic]

You sound like tanking is all about enmity and this narrow point of view is narrow.
You neglect positioning of mobs, managing defensive cooldowns, party support and damage.
So my view of tanking includes 5 points, who will be reduced to 4 by making enmity "automatic" or a really low focus point.
I'm more excited about how much they emphasize the other aspects of my view on tanking instead of whining about a minor part reduced to background noise that was more of a hindrance or nuisance then an interesting part of the jobs gameplay.

he implied that he wants them to have basically the same defensive cool downs. And yeah nothing he said suggests that stuff is going to get any more difficult.

Basically you are hoping they make other things more interesting to make up for a half hearted enimity mechanic, but he only mentions dps in the video when asked what they could now focus more on. Also, most of the other issues you are talking about are more about enemy/encounter design than class design. Which means all old content just got easier. And its hard to believe they will make better encounters, because to be honest, most combat encounters involving things like positioning, party support etc have had less focus.

We dont know until we see the final result, but his over arching comments seem to be, job class is just cosmetic flavor on the role. Lets simplify how easy it is to perform said role.

[Musashidon]

SE's target consumer is the casual so yes they are going to do everything they can to help them play better.

one thing people seem to always not get is anything people do to tear down everyone else will get nerfed, in this current situation is main stat melds and offensive tanking stance. people complained hard how people ignore the pointless melds and maxing for dps is pretty worthless and leaving tank stance other than for when you are ot if also not needed. just because there is a way to do better doesnt mean people are going to so its actually a lot better for everyone to take the option away so that the ones who won't use it will be better over all and the ones that will won't have to be mad about the ones who don't.

remember when tanks could use str accessories and most didn't? people got upset over it so guess what SE took it away.

so next you go hey players should learn and do this to get better, chances are SE is going to nerf it hard to cater to them.

[Awha]

The solution is to make content REQUIRE learning before you can move on.
Don't lower the quality of players by making it easier, weed out the bad players by expecting them to do more.

Putting up a gate that says "learn your class, or you're stuck" is a good way to make people learn.

I am not SE but maybe the feel that is a good way to alienate the larger player base.

Or the developers could put in tools to gate and teach people how their job works instead of making this Baby’s First MMO. Novel concept.

That said, the people that complain about the types of players you describe are describing lazy players—DPS that won’t AOE, tanks that won’t use cooldowns, healers that want to stand around and watch Netflix instead of participating in the content. Why should we change the way things work to reinforce these types of behavior? The game should honestly require more competence, not less.



The skill floor of BRD is already really, really low. It is probably one of the easiest jobs to pick up and play at a basic level. You can’t really lower it more than it already is. The two things I notice “bad BRDs” do the most frequently is:
—Not using their AOE
—Not using their songs (and thereby losing out on big chunks of their kit)

Should we automatically remove AOEs and songs because they won’t use them? No. The game should put them though a Hall of Novice-type piece of content that teaches them how to use these things and why they should be used.

They actually mentioned in the PLL that, in the case of BRD, they are simplifying its gameplay because of how some players said that they couldn’t play it “as good as” some of the higher-tier players. This isn’t about bringing down the floor; it’s about bringing down the ceiling to close the gap between the playerbase. And I don’t really agree with that sort of thing. If people want to see themselves like “the good players”, why not put in the effort to get there instead of having it handed to you?


They’ve done this with other jobs where they brought down the ceiling to close the gap between the “bad players” and the “good players” — DRG’s Heavy Thrust was nerfed from +15% damage to +10% damage because players were losing damage by not applying the buff. So they nerfed it to bring down the ceiling for those who couldn’t bother to apply Heavy Thrust.

While I agree with you 100%, I do think they are using the skill gap as an excuse to cover up the fact that they simply do not know how to properly balance crit. (Nevermind I saw you brought this point up already, did not see that.)

[Taybat]

The game hasn't come out yet. I believe people thought the same thing about stormblood before it came out. And stormblood churned out some of the hardest content so far.

[Shurrikhan]

The point I'm trying to stress is patience and wait until the 29 for first hand experience and then launch so we can actually see how it pans out.

...Why should we wait to comment on things we already know in entirety? Sure, we don't know how the job will play on the whole, but we do absolutely know what, for example, having no effect between Crit-bonus windows and cpm will have. We know exactly what effect, say, Mage's Ballad no longer resetting Bloodletter would have on the feel of that song. What aspects we do know we should feel free to comment on in the scope we're aware of them. We've already seen time and time again what "waiting for the full gameplay" does for our prospects for timely fixes or improvements, how little the skill mechanics actually change in the interim, and the delays that waiting faces unless a limelight job of a given patch.

Well since you main BRD and we are talking about making things simpler, was extending the DoTs in 4.0 good or bad in you opinion? While I'm still leveling BRD, I notice the extension is helpful because it lets me focus more on keeping straight shot buff up, songs up, and focus on my shot weaving. Now you say Repertoire is confirmed as a flat rate, okay but a good BRD is still going to need to make sure your DoTs are up, you just won't be penalized as heavy if you miss it during on rotation. Now if they remove DoTs all together that would simplifying the job. Trust me, I don't agree with everything SE has said like removing Crit+ party buff from songs and will be the first one at launch asking for them to add another buff to replace it.

Can't speak for Hyo, but I personally disliked the extended DoTs. It made me feel like I was just spamming Heavy Shot all day, and would have preferred a higher proc rate from HS into RA and more frequent IJ casts necessary.

That said, I wouldn't mind, for instance, one song allowing for quicker individual applications of skills (DoTs, in the case of cleave-AoE), another being able to AoE-apply a given DoT, and yet another being able to AoE-refresh them. That covers the same multi-DoT AoE value as the elongated DoTs would have, but with more control and without making single-target combat feel so spammy.

[Physic]

You keep using the word 'minimal' to describe tank damage. Stop it. Tanks can unleash some serious pain right now, and that's not likely to change too dramatically. I guarantee you that unless they do something really dramatic, my Gunbreaker will still be able to out-perform a bad DPS throughout most content.

Besides, what would you have preferred? Contrary to what others have tried to argue in these forums, aggro management is NOT FUN. Me going back into tank stance for another Butcher's Block combo because the RDM can't find Diversion isn't interesting gameplay, it's arbitrary garbage that's keeping me from doing the things I want to do. Even worse if you're PLD or DRK and you lose out on MP or blood because of it. Every enmity combo you throw out is lost potential to activate the fun parts of your job, period. And the game changing that is a good thing.

Besides, with explicit enmity combos gone, it unlocks a lot of weaponskill budget to make tank DPS rotations more engaging. What's not to like about that? Tanks are still going to be in the front of the bosses, and they still have skills that focus on mitigation and defense. They just also do those while the core gameplay loop focuses around doing the optimal amount of damage, at the same time. Your optimal damage will result in optimal mitigation, and optimal sustain, which is a vastly healthier playstyle than we have right now.

We finally get to have our cake and eat it too. It's amazing.

tanks generally do half the dps of a dps class, even in pure dps stance.

I personally may have found tanking to be kinda meh, and the fact that i had to give half my skills to managing enmity, when it honestly didnt seem to matter. But i am generally more dps focused.

What about the guys who wanted more mob control, more interactive enemy/player interactions? For the monster to be a threat that required them to pay attention and react? Clutch use of mitigation?

it just seems like for people who actually prefer contrOl/mitigation this might be the wrong direction to go.


if they are simplifying enmity, and are making active mitigation/recovery more important, thats great, but that doesnt seem to be what he suggested in the video

[Ayer2015]

Because it's getting more and more dumbed down and homogenized with every passing moment.. the only to "balance" jobs is make them all exactly the same... elimintate choice and variety and people can't possibly go wrong.

pld has cover / intervention.. OMG every other tank must have the same....
other tanks have a gap closer.. Must give one to PLD....

In a sense we really aren't that far away from what they did at the very start of 1.0 where literally the only differance between one class and another was the weapon they used....

Well, the devs are doing this because players are rejecting jobs because they do not have the same capabilities... So blame the players.