New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Melichoir]

It's worth noting that giving what players want may not be healthy for the game at large. Just because people want to skip the MSQ doesnt mean itd be good for FFXIV to do that.

Consider the following:

There are players who speed past all the dialogue, cutscenes, scenery, dungeons, etc once an xpac drops. They charge for max level, foregoing everything n between. They hit 70, devour what 70 content is in a day or three, then spend the subsequent weeks witching about how the game is boring, there's nothing to do, "go figure the devs would make a crap xpac", etc.

What this highlights is that when given the choice to enjoy the game or skip past it all, some players make the stupid decision to skip content because they think what's best is to get to 70 asap. Now, if they give new players the option to skip most content for free, what makes anyone think this wouldnt be an issue? Players would skip content, not know what is going on story wise (they have very little investment in the world/characters/stakes), which would incline them to skip even more content going forward by rushing it. They willl think the 'fun parts' of the game is current stuff, not realizing there is a lot of enjoyment to be had from content in ARR. Not saying it's perfect, btw, but mostly good for what it is.

Instead, I figure youll see players skip stuff, get to the end, say the game sucks cause there's nothing to do and they have no investment in the story aspects, and end up quitting. And theyll do this thinking this is the better option, not realizing that actually taking your time with things will make the experience better, not worse. The players will choose poorly for themselves out of ignorance and assumptions if given the opportunity to skip any effort required to go through ARR and similar content. That's probably part of the reason why jump potions arent free. That acts as a deterrent to new players. You have an option you have to pay for, and new players will more likely play through content they paid for then skip past it if they have to pay for that skip.

[Barraind]

Who goes into the game laser-focusing on the endgame without doing research about it first?

Things I ask about MMO's:

Is the crafting system both robust and of actual quality?

Are there raids?

Are the endgame dungeons worth running a lot?



Things I've never had to ask before 14:

Will I be stuck following a linear path that HEAVILY gates me regardless of character/class level (you can be into your mid 60's before you finish the 100 sins of squeenix in ARR) to the point where I cannot experience content unless I spend more than the base game costs to get to the part of the game I like playing?

These people that skip all the MSQ are the same people that complain there isn’t enough content in the game

Funny, because the MSQ ACTIVELY PREVENTS YOU FROM ACCESSING CONTENT.

As in, to access actual content (dungeons, trials, raids, alliance quests, daily quests) you have to get through certain parts of the MSQ or you are completely locked out of those systems regardless of character level. Level 61 and in full stormblood gear but still havent finished a certain part of MSQ? Sorry, you dont have access to reputation farming, alliance raids, 8 man raids, extreme trials, the hunt system, the squadron system, player housing, something im certain im forgetting, and probably feel like theres not enough content in the game.

[Paladinleeds]

They can simply make the content level gated, the quest tracker will still exist so if people want to enjoy the story they can simply follow the quest tracker but at the end of the day they will be able to do the story at their own pace and not the pace the game dictates.

Edit I do understand that they need to make money and know that these changes prob will not happen because of that, but it is interesting none the less.

However in doing so, if my dungeons are unlocked by simply reaching the level and not by doing the quests around it (forced quests), that to me loses the value of it if for example Sohm Al gets unlocked at say level 53 (instead of going through the quests that lead you to it. You can say "Oh, but do the quests before the dungeon" however it still wouldn't fill in the context for me). I hated it in WoW in the end, not knowing why a duty was unlocked, it just appearing. The duties felt like they had no real purpose to me. That being said...

This is fine, this is why my suggestion is more of an opt out, rather than an opt in. So normally the game plays the same way, but there is some npc/quest/area that allows you to skip around/unlock msq.

the story is definitely as you say, partially designed to control how players get exposed to the world. But there are a decent chunk who dont want/need msq. The thing you might hate, mucking around, exploring, grinding, is what they want to do. Some just want to play with friends without having to stop and do quests before tackling the next dungeon.

Its just an option, that those who actively seek to get out of/around msq can take.

I have to say I like this idea, IF Square Enix can feasibly pull it off. For the people like me who can't stand the idea of a duty being unlocked just by reaching the level with no context other than the level, we have the "natural" way of the story. But for those who cannot stand the MSQ, it would offer a way for them to be able to access the content they're likely to enjoy (dungeons etc), without having to go through the MSQ. If they don't care for the lore behind each dungeon, who am I to deny them the ability to play it? Unfortunately, I guess it would cut into "Story skip" sales which means it wouldn't happen.

[Awha]

It's worth noting that giving what players want may not be healthy for the game at large. Just because people want to skip the MSQ doesnt mean itd be good for FFXIV to do that.

Consider the following:

There are players who speed past all the dialogue, cutscenes, scenery, dungeons, etc once an xpac drops. They charge for max level, foregoing everything n between. They hit 70, devour what 70 content is in a day or three, then spend the subsequent weeks witching about how the game is boring, there's nothing to do, "go figure the devs would make a crap xpac", etc.

What this highlights is that when given the choice to enjoy the game or skip past it all, some players make the stupid decision to skip content because they think what's best is to get to 70 asap. Now, if they give new players the option to skip most content for free, what makes anyone think this wouldnt be an issue? Players would skip content, not know what is going on story wise (they have very little investment in the world/characters/stakes), which would incline them to skip even more content going forward by rushing it. They willl think the 'fun parts' of the game is current stuff, not realizing there is a lot of enjoyment to be had from content in ARR. Not saying it's perfect, btw, but mostly good for what it is.

Instead, I figure youll see players skip stuff, get to the end, say the game sucks cause there's nothing to do and they have no investment in the story aspects, and end up quitting. And theyll do this thinking this is the better option, not realizing that actually taking your time with things will make the experience better, not worse. The players will choose poorly for themselves out of ignorance and assumptions if given the opportunity to skip any effort required to go through ARR and similar content. That's probably part of the reason why jump potions arent free. That acts as a deterrent to new players. You have an option you have to pay for, and new players will more likely play through content they paid for then skip past it if they have to pay for that skip.

I get this fear, but if the story is as important as people make it out to be then making it so content is level gated would not deter those that want to invest their time and enjoy the story from doing so. For some reason I just get this feeling that if SE made the content level gated instead of story gated people who enjoy the story get the feeling that without the game forcing you to do the story many would not even bother thus maybe showing that the story itself is not all that important to the game. Which I do not think would happen, I am willing to concede that maybe most people play this game for the story, and making content level gated would not deter people from enjoying said story. All level gating would do is make it so people who in that moment are not ready to do the story or simply do not want to do the story do not have to do it in that moment. (general you)

Though I also agree this will never happen because people like myself buy story skips and or job boosts for friends that wish to try FFXIV, and with new game + coming out if they wish to go back to the story they can do so. In the end I think it comes down to the fact that for some the story is side content, for others it is not. I know very little about the story in FFXIV, but I do enjoy the crafting, gathering, housing, raiding, trials, and the community. Those aspects are the my primary content that keeps me subbed to FFXIV.

Maybe I am just naive, but I do not think people in general are that dumb that they will skip content then complain later that they have no content to do, since as players we all have different priorities on the content that we enjoy. Way I say if people skip certain content that content because moot to that player since they had no interest in. Sure people may complain about not having enough content that they personal enjoy, but I do not think people who skip content would complain about the general lack of content as a whole. I am sure some will, but I do not think it would be a large group.

However in doing so, if my dungeons are unlocked by simply reaching the level and not by doing the quests around it (forced quests), that to me loses the value of it if for example Sohm Al gets unlocked at say level 53 (instead of going through the quests that lead you to it. You can say "Oh, but do the quests before the dungeon" however it still wouldn't fill in the context for me). I hated it in WoW in the end, not knowing why a duty was unlocked, it just appearing. The duties felt like they had no real purpose to me. That being said...



I have to say I like this idea, IF Square Enix can feasibly pull it off. For the people like me who can't stand the idea of a duty being unlocked just by reaching the level with no context other than the level, we have the "natural" way of the story. But for those who cannot stand the MSQ, it would offer a way for them to be able to access the content they're likely to enjoy (dungeons etc), without having to go through the MSQ. If they don't care for the lore behind each dungeon, who am I to deny them the ability to play it? Unfortunately, I guess it would cut into "Story skip" sales which means it wouldn't happen.

That is the thing the quest tracker will still exist, if you follow the quest tracker then you will never lose your place in the MSQ follow the tracker and it will function just as the MSQ does now, expect that if someone does not want to they do not have to. The quest tracker maps out everything for the MSQ it is a step by step guide as to what one needs to do, how will you be missing out on context?

WoW is a poor example because their quest tracker was horrible, but FFXIV has a pretty decent quest tracker, unless one ignores it completely I do not see how one could get lost or lose out on context for dungeons if they follow it. Overall I get where you are coming from though.

[Skivvy]

However in doing so, if my dungeons are unlocked by simply reaching the level and not by doing the quests around it (forced quests), that to me loses the value of it if for example Sohm Al gets unlocked at say level 53 (instead of going through the quests that lead you to it. You can say "Oh, but do the quests before the dungeon" however it still wouldn't fill in the context for me). I hated it in WoW in the end, not knowing why a duty was unlocked, it just appearing. The duties felt like they had no real purpose to me. That being said...



I have to say I like this idea, IF Square Enix can feasibly pull it off. For the people like me who can't stand the idea of a duty being unlocked just by reaching the level with no context other than the level, we have the "natural" way of the story. But for those who cannot stand the MSQ, it would offer a way for them to be able to access the content they're likely to enjoy (dungeons etc), without having to go through the MSQ. If they don't care for the lore behind each dungeon, who am I to deny them the ability to play it? Unfortunately, I guess it would cut into "Story skip" sales which means it wouldn't happen.

I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me, but would something like the following have any notion of being functional:

*The green-MSQ quest line will still take you around new zones, introduce the dungeons, trials, and the general story line. This is the required part to ensure you get your content unlocked.
*As you continue along the main-MSQ, related side-quests would be become available that flesh out/continue the story for the full completion. This part would be optional.

I'm going to have to depend on you MSQ-readers here as I'm not sure how linked/relevant every single quest is in the MSQ chain. I also imagine it could be somewhat difficult to break up the story in that manner, but as I said, just tossing out ideas.

[Berret_Snow]

So many people saying things about endgame yet my end game is glamours! I'm fine with playing HW's and SB's mqs since they really fixed it up but I have an eternal hatred for ARR and the bloated patches.

[Paladinleeds]

That is the thing the quest tracker will still exist, if you follow the quest tracker then you will never lose your place in the MSQ follow the tracker and it will function just as the MSQ does now, expect that if someone does not want to they do not have to. The quest tracker maps out everything for the MSQ it is a step by step guide as to what one needs to do, how will you be missing out on context?

WoW is a poor example because their quest tracker was horrible, but FFXIV has a pretty decent quest tracker, unless one ignores it completely I do not see how one could get lost or lose out on context for dungeons if they follow it.

The MSQ (or optional side quest if it's a side-quest unlocked duty) explains the reason of "Oh we need you to do this in this duty" thus giving the reason. Filling it in later wouldn't work for me, as it'd still be unlocked at the level, and not after the quest explaining why. The flow would still be completely broken for me. RuneScape had quest gatings for areas, which were unlocked as you progressed through the quest chains, so each area also had the meaning behind it. There were plenty "open access" areas mind you, but the areas that were quest gated, had their stories explained behind them, and your reasons for accessing them. Notice how I agreed with Physic's idea of allowing someone to undock them if they didn't want to deal with the MSQ.

I'm just spitballing here, so bear with me, but would something like the following have any notion of being functional:

*The green-MSQ quest line will still take you around new zones, introduce the dungeons, trials, and the general story line. This is the required part to ensure you get your content unlocked.
*As you continue along the main-MSQ, related side-quests would be become available that flesh out/continue the story for the full completion. This part would be optional.

I'm going to have to depend on you MSQ-readers here as I'm not sure how linked/relevant every single quest is in the MSQ chain. I also imagine it could be somewhat difficult to break up the story in that manner, but as I said, just tossing out ideas.

It's fine to toss out ideas, isn't that the whole point of this thread, to toss out ideas and weigh up how they'll affect different people, in order to find a compromise? As for your spitballing... That could work. So long as the green MSQ went through the reasoning of why you were going into that duty, the aftermath of it could be thrown to sidequests yes. I'd still have my reason for entering the duty explained to me before I go in, and so it'd cut the mustard for me. Pretty good idea actually. And yes, for every duty, the reasoning behind it is explained, with varying degrees of success in its effectiveness.

[Melorie]

I hope that Square can come up with a fix that is not a xp boost, because even these don't really help. I have a friend that's lvl 70 and still haven't finished stormblood MSQ, he's capped on mendacity and can't even buy his gear because the npc is not there, we can't do maps with him because if it ends up on the lochs, for example, he can't acess it. He can't even do the secondary lvl 70 dungeons because these quests only appear after you've finished stormblood. He can't progress through the new raids or trials because these quests, even though optional, won't appear unless he finishes Stormblood msq. I don't even know if he can start beast tribes, but my guess is that he can't. Even though they're optional and not related to the msq, even though he has the level for them, he still needs to do msq to do these.

[Paladinleeds]

I don't even know if he can start beast tribes, but my guess is that he can't. Even though they're optional and not related to the msq, even though he has the level for them, he still needs to do msq to do these.

Beast tribes have a certain point in the MSQ where they're unlockable, but it comes before the main Stormblood named quest. I believe the Ananta requires up to a certain level 67 MSQ for example, with Kojin I believe a 63 one. So it's not as bad, but yes, they are gated behind the MSQ still.

[Awha]

I hope that Square can come up with a fix that is not a xp boost, because even these don't really help. I have a friend that's lvl 70 and still haven't finished stormblood MSQ, he's capped on mendacity and can't even buy his gear because the npc is not there, we can't do maps with him because if it ends up on the lochs, for example, he can't acess it. He can't even do the secondary lvl 70 dungeons because these quests only appear after you've finished stormblood. He can't progress through the new raids or trials because these quests, even though optional, won't appear unless he finishes Stormblood msq. I don't even know if he can start beast tribes, but my guess is that he can't. Even though they're optional and not related to the msq, even though he has the level for them, he still needs to do msq to do these.

I ran into that issue with a friend of mine. I do hope SB story skip at the very least come out soon it is a shame since it does enjoy the games combat and classes, but sadly the story is simply not his cup of tea and given the aesthetic he is having a hard time even attempting SB.

The MSQ (or optional side quest if it's a side-quest unlocked duty) explains the reason of "Oh we need you to do this in this duty" thus giving the reason. Filling it in later wouldn't work for me, as it'd still be unlocked at the level, and not after the quest explaining why. The flow would still be completely broken for me. RuneScape had quest gatings for areas, which were unlocked as you progressed through the quest chains, so each area also had the meaning behind it. There were plenty "open access" areas mind you, but the areas that were quest gated, had their stories explained behind them, and your reasons for accessing them. Notice how I agreed with Physic's idea of allowing someone to undock them if they didn't want to deal with the MSQ.



It's fine to toss out ideas, isn't that the whole point of this thread, to toss out ideas and weigh up how they'll affect different people, in order to find a compromise? As for your spitballing... That could work. So long as the green MSQ went through the reasoning of why you were going into that duty, the aftermath of it could be thrown to sidequests yes. I'd still have my reason for entering the duty explained to me before I go in, and so it'd cut the mustard for me. Pretty good idea actually. And yes, for every duty, the reasoning behind it is explained, with varying degrees of success in its effectiveness.

As I mentioned before in a edit, I do understand where you are coming from just for me it confuses me. In the end the tunneling aspect of the MSQ is important to you and part of the reason as to why the connection between the world and story exist? I am an extremely weird person that skips around when it comes to books or series, so the writing in itself is just one aspect of what helps immerse yourself in the story. Please correct me if I am wrong, in the end the reason why maybe some including yourself do not agree with making content level gated instead of MSQ gated is because it breaks the linear path set up by the developers since the game throws exp at players as such an alarming rate that sooner or later one is bound to out level the MSQ, and you as a player already know that content has been unlocked, which ruins the connection between the game world and your character?

Or is it maybe something simpler like back tracking is simply more hassle then it is worth?

Once again I sort of understand to a degree with what you are saying about how you enjoy the story, not trying to question that simply trying to understand what helps foster the connection between the game story and the player.