5.0 leaks (that I don't believe)

[Seraphor]

The thing is none of your arguments are as compelling as you think they are, they're subjective.

Based on lore: Can go either way
Based on job mechanics: can go either way
Based on complexity: can go either way

Which is why I'm saying you're inserting your own preconceptions into the equation.

There are a couple thing's which aren't so subjective, and they're important parts of the job and class identity.
Based on job role: ARC is already DPS
Based on flavour: Carbuncles more closely resemble Egis than Fairies, so much so that they implemented Egi glamours, but not Fairy glamours.

[Brandedblade]

The carbuncles are literally the only element of arcanist that's summoner oriented. Every other aspect of them, the use of books as a weapon, the emphasis on utilizing strategy, and even the damage over time elements are all elements utilized by scholar in other final fantasy games

[Rosa_Frandlia]

The carbuncles are literally the only element of arcanist that's summoner oriented. Every other aspect of them, the use of books as a weapon, the emphasis on utilizing strategy, and even the damage over time elements are all elements utilized by scholar in other final fantasy games

Excuse me? How does summoner get into dreadwyrm trance? How do they get out demi-bahamut? This is heavily tied into arcanist as it requires aetherflow right now. Any changes to either would change all quests for the most part on both classes, likely more than making the sch 45 quest say ensua as opposed to leaches that came with role actions. A split likely isn't going to happen and the two classes share nothing past 50 when they get shadow flare. They'd likely have to re-write the entire 50 to 70 quests from a lore standpoint on summoner.

Let's get this back to the "leak".... anyone want to try do do the final duty of 4.56 with only oGCD's for the dps check phase? That seems impossible.

[Kalise]

Based on lore: Can go either way
Based on job mechanics: can go either way
Based on complexity: can go either way

Based on the lore, it favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since, Alka Zolka specifies that he needs an experienced Arcanist to help decipher ancient Nymian texts about Arcanima.

While Y'mhitra doesn't give 2 hoots what class you are, only that you've fought Ifrit.

Based on job mechanics, if favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since Atherflow is a more engrained part of their kit, with Fey Gauge working off of Aetherflow usage, more than one way to generate Aetherflow stacks as well as Healers as a role are built around having DoT skills to have high potency attacks that aren't spammable.

Based on complexity, I argue that it favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since, I argue that simply retooling ARC as a Healer and then doing the necessary modifications to Carbuncles and SMN to create the separation is simpler than reworking the entirety of SCH.

Though, I hear the fact that healers are being "Rebalanced" is your argument towards "Well SCH is getting reworked anyway!" - Ignoring the fact that Healers were being "Rebalanced" heading into Stormblood too...

At the end of the day, this is just my opinion on this one particular facet.

My overall stance is that separating EITHER Scholar or Summoner from the Arcanist class is ultimately pointless because there are other, far less work intensive, ways in order to further diverge the 2 jobs if their similarity is an issue.

Thus the stance that this "Leak" about 5.0 is complete baloney. Along with the rest of the ridiculous "Leaks" that the greentext contained.

But, that IF for whatever reason, SE decides to take it upon themselves to commit to the idea of separating one, I could see SMN being separated before SCH. Due to what I've already explained numerous times in this thread.

With the only reason I can possibly see for SE to actually bother to split one of the jobs off, is if they plan to totally rework the job from the ground up. With entirely new skills. Which I can only imagine would be the case if they decided to upend Summoner and cater to a certain section of the playerbase that wish for them to be "More about Summons".

Which again, is highly unlikely given the amount of work it would necessitate and for such little (If any) gain.

[Neoyoshi]

Hi, I want to share with you some leaks/datamining found on 4chan apparently.

4chan isn't exactly winning a Pulitzer. They are there to sow chaos on the internet, very much like the Ascians here in Eorzea.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

Based on the lore, it favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since, Alka Zolka specifies that he needs an experienced Arcanist to help decipher ancient Nymian texts about Arcanima.

While Y'mhitra doesn't give 2 hoots what class you are, only that you've fought Ifrit.

Based on job mechanics, if favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since Atherflow is a more engrained part of their kit, with Fey Gauge working off of Aetherflow usage, more than one way to generate Aetherflow stacks as well as Healers as a role are built around having DoT skills to have high potency attacks that aren't spammable.

Based on complexity, I argue that it favours SCH retaining ARC base.

Since, I argue that simply retooling ARC as a Healer and then doing the necessary modifications to Carbuncles and SMN to create the separation is simpler than reworking the entirety of SCH.

Though, I hear the fact that healers are being "Rebalanced" is your argument towards "Well SCH is getting reworked anyway!" - Ignoring the fact that Healers were being "Rebalanced" heading into Stormblood too...

At the end of the day, this is just my opinion on this one particular facet.

My overall stance is that separating EITHER Scholar or Summoner from the Arcanist class is ultimately pointless because there are other, far less work intensive, ways in order to further diverge the 2 jobs if their similarity is an issue.

Thus the stance that this "Leak" about 5.0 is complete baloney. Along with the rest of the ridiculous "Leaks" that the greentext contained.

But, that IF for whatever reason, SE decides to take it upon themselves to commit to the idea of separating one, I could see SMN being separated before SCH. Due to what I've already explained numerous times in this thread.

With the only reason I can possibly see for SE to actually bother to split one of the jobs off, is if they plan to totally rework the job from the ground up. With entirely new skills. Which I can only imagine would be the case if they decided to upend Summoner and cater to a certain section of the playerbase that wish for them to be "More about Summons".

Which again, is highly unlikely given the amount of work it would necessitate and for such little (If any) gain.

I agree with your conclusion. If drk, whm, mch, and mnk are all getting reworks as stated already and we are getting two new jobs having to create a new smn and/or sch would be then 7 or 8 jobs. As it is, they hare doing 6 and attempting to balance healers which is like where the whm rework comes in. Sch is already in a good place among healers and smn among casters, if it aint broke why fix it?

I do disagree with you though on one point, aetherflow is ingrained into both kits. Try getting to demi-bahamut without using aetherflow and tell me if it is possible, it is part of the core rotation right now.

[Kalise]

I do disagree with you though on one point, aetherflow is ingrained into both kits. Try getting to demi-bahamut without using aetherflow and tell me if it is possible, it is part of the core rotation right now.

You mean if Aetherflow was simply removed and DWT was merely on the same 60s CD that Aetherflow is?

Well, then I'd press the DWT button twice and then summon Bahamut.

Try balancing Fey Gauge generation if all oGCD's for SCH are on independent CD's and generate Gauge. You'd have to utilize weird mechanics where all their oGCD actions share the same reuse timer, but then they can only use 1 per CD? So then they're screwed?

It's like saying "They can't remove Fracture from Warriors, it's part of the core rotation right now!" despite its removal having like no impact because the "Rebalancing" to adjust for its removal is inconsequential.

The same is true for Summoner and Aetherflow. Yes, they use it. But it hasn't been built upon like it has for SCH with interdependent interactions.

For SMN it's merely a means to use 2-3 Festers (With 1-0 Painflares) per minute and essentially a 60s CD for DWT (Since you want to dump your Aetherflow on CD, ideally with 3x Fester but sometimes you use a Painflare/Bane/Energy Drain if you need to dump a bit faster for specific timings)

Basically, 20s CD on Fester (Can share CD with Painflare) + 60s CD on DWT and you essentially have the same rotation minute by minute. Literally the only difference at that point is some optimization with fitting in 3x Fester during Contagion.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

You mean if Aetherflow was simply removed and DWT was merely on the same 60s CD that Aetherflow is?

Well, then I'd press the DWT button twice and then summon Bahamut.

Try balancing Fey Gauge generation if all oGCD's for SCH are on independent CD's and generate Gauge. You'd have to utilize weird mechanics where all their oGCD actions share the same reuse timer, but then they can only use 1 per CD? So then they're screwed?

It's like saying "They can't remove Fracture from Warriors, it's part of the core rotation right now!" despite its removal having like no impact because the "Rebalancing" to adjust for its removal is inconsequential.

The same is true for Summoner and Aetherflow. Yes, they use it. But it hasn't been built upon like it has for SCH with interdependent interactions.

For SMN it's merely a means to use 2-3 Festers (With 1-0 Painflares) per minute and essentially a 60s CD for DWT (Since you want to dump your Aetherflow on CD, ideally with 3x Fester but sometimes you use a Painflare/Bane/Energy Drain if you need to dump a bit faster for specific timings)

Basically, 20s CD on Fester (Can share CD with Painflare) + 60s CD on DWT and you essentially have the same rotation minute by minute. Literally the only difference at that point is some optimization with fitting in 3x Fester during Contagion.

I'm saying it wouldn't feel the same at all, unless a new gauge acted the same. I don't want either class though to get the WHM lilly treatment where they have to work despite the mechanic, not because of it. Now the devil's advocate question, could a new gauge be used for sch with the same feel and work that is tied to enhancing the fairy? Could that work?

Why though do you want to rework smn so badly? Is it sharing archanist something that is ruining the feel of sch for you? Now if it is about shortening the opener for smn, that I wouldn't have a problem with as I don't want to see it go up to 4 or 5 minutes with needing to summon 2 demi-bahamuts to get the 80 cap skill.

[Kalise]

I'm saying it wouldn't feel the same at all, unless a new gauge acted the same. I don't want either class though to get the WHM lilly treatment where they have to work despite the mechanic, not because of it.

Well, I guess you should be against the current implementation of SMN then, since its the same fare. They work despite Aetherflow, not because of it.

As I mentioned, 20s CD Fester and 60s CD DWT would effectively recreate SMN's actual rotation. The literal only effect it would have is not being able to triple Fester during Contagion (But the flip side is they'd get a Fester during DWT meaning they only lose a single Fester under a 10% buff from if they were optimizing, but many people just stick to Sicfirit anyway, so it would be a buff for them to get the 1 Fester during DWT)

Since, unlike SCH, the job doesn't have much freedom about holding onto their Aetherflow, it's SPAM IT ALL ON CD to get the DWT's up every 60 seconds to get Bahamut up every 2 minutes.

Now the devil's advocate question, could a new gauge be used for sch with the same feel and work that is tied to enhancing the fairy? Could that work?

Quite possibly.

I'm not entirely sure exactly what, as it would need to be some sort of resource that they can generate to fuel their oGCD's that has some sort of limit on its generation and maximum potential - Effectively imitating Aetherflow.

Why though do you want to rework smn so badly?

I don't.

At least, not in this way.

I'm merely pointing out the fact that SMN, for all these bells and whistles, has not been designed particularly well. Sort of as though they were forced to include the Aetherflow mechanic in their design, rather than trying to design what they wanted for SMN and it being Aetherflow that they felt would fit it best.

Like, the fact that you could nigh seamlessly remove the gauge alltogether and the job would barely play any differently is a huge sign of poor design. Unlike any of the actually well designed jobs/job gauges where their removal cannot be simply covered by adding in CD's (Maybe PLD could get away with a fixed CD on Sheltron/Intervention? It'd ironically be a buff to Shield Oath which is terrible for generating Oath Gauge...)

Is it sharing archanist something that is ruining the feel of sch for you?

No. I feel SCH is fine.

You know, outside of obvious balance issues made by their shields being ridiculous for nullifying certain boss mechanics. Especially the dumb interactions involving Critlo > Deployment...

[Rosa_Frandlia]

Well, I guess you should be against the current implementation of SMN then, since its the same fare. They work despite Aetherflow, not because of it.

As I mentioned, 20s CD Fester and 60s CD DWT would effectively recreate SMN's actual rotation. The literal only effect it would have is not being able to triple Fester during Contagion (But the flip side is they'd get a Fester during DWT meaning they only lose a single Fester under a 10% buff from if they were optimizing, but many people just stick to Sicfirit anyway, so it would be a buff for them to get the 1 Fester during DWT)

Since, unlike SCH, the job doesn't have much freedom about holding onto their Aetherflow, it's SPAM IT ALL ON CD to get the DWT's up every 60 seconds to get Bahamut up every 2 minutes.



Quite possibly.

I'm not entirely sure exactly what, as it would need to be some sort of resource that they can generate to fuel their oGCD's that has some sort of limit on its generation and maximum potential - Effectively imitating Aetherflow.



I don't.

At least, not in this way.

I'm merely pointing out the fact that SMN, for all these bells and whistles, has not been designed particularly well. Sort of as though they were forced to include the Aetherflow mechanic in their design, rather than trying to design what they wanted for SMN and it being Aetherflow that they felt would fit it best.

Like, the fact that you could nigh seamlessly remove the gauge alltogether and the job would barely play any differently is a huge sign of poor design. Unlike any of the actually well designed jobs/job gauges where their removal cannot be simply covered by adding in CD's (Maybe PLD could get away with a fixed CD on Sheltron/Intervention? It'd ironically be a buff to Shield Oath which is terrible for generating Oath Gauge...)



No. I feel SCH is fine.

You know, outside of obvious balance issues made by their shields being ridiculous for nullifying certain boss mechanics. Especially the dumb interactions involving Critlo > Deployment...

The useless lily gauge may actually work with smn with you describe. Use of bane, fester, painflare generate a... hmm... dragon's blood that could tie into the 58 quest? get 3, dreadwyrm trance. Other things though would likely need replaced like bane, shadowflare, etc... but other spells would need to replace the class skills anyway for such a major rework. What would the level 1 spell be, or for that matter 38, 54, and 62 ones too. Even its already unique abilities would need to be reworked as well at 66 with bio and miasma. With just tri-bind , that is about the equivelant of an aero 3 from a whm alone and not nearly enough aoe that smn would have in losing bio and misasma with a bane and shadowflare.

It isn't as simple as you make it sound like it would be as there would be 1-50 class skills to change beyond 3 levels beyond 50 to change. It would have to be a whole new job if all of arc were taken out. Both it and sch have this problem of course, you'd have to totally come up with new skills to replace the ones lost 1-50 and have them work still in that level content.