Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Sylve]

This can be applied in both ways. In favor of those that want to speedrun and those who don't want to.
And we are right back to square one.

You know how you resolve it?
You ask the rando. If the rando refuses:

Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

And just finish the damn run with the party you have.

[Awha]

You know how you resolve it?
You ask the rando. If the rando refuses:


And just finish the damn run with the party you have.

Or ask the rando if the rando refuses you initiate a vote to remove the player if it passes you get a replacement if it fails you either make the choice to deal with it or leave.

[Sylve]

Or ask the rando if the rando refuses you initiate a vote to remove the player if it passes you get a replacement if it fails you either make the choice to deal with it or leave.

or

Accept that a DF run will very likely not be a speedrun the moment you add a random to your party.

You could try simply accepting that not every party will be a perfect speed run.
You waste more time booting the 'offending' player and getting a replacement than it would have taken to simply deal with it and clear the dungeon with the party you have.

[Awha]

or



You could try simply accepting that not every party will be a perfect speed run.
You waste more time booting the 'offending' player and getting a replacement than it would have taken to simply deal with it and clear the dungeon with the party you have.

That is the groups prerogative, if the groups feels it will be a net gain to wait for a replacement then dealing with the outlier that is on their choice. I get where you are coming from, but as players we do not have to blindly accept the RNG outcomes that the DF throws at us, we have choices. Now one can argue that the function was not intended to be used in such a way, or that community methods or desires do not align with the intent or goals of the developers. If that is true the developers should either do something to enforce their desired intent for the content, clarify and enforce a rules or do nothing and maintain the status quo.

Though I will say as I mentioned and many have echoed in this thread the only many of us want is for someone to try, if the group is offering support the outlier player loses nothing by trying. That is what confuses me you say we should try to be accepting of their preferred method of running a dungeon but not the other way around?

[Sylve]

That is the groups prerogative, if the groups feels it will be a net gain to wait for a replacement then dealing with the outlier that is on their choice. I get where you are coming from, but as players we do not have to blindly accept the RNG outcomes that the DF throws at us, we have choices. Now one can argue that the function was not intended to be used in such a way, or that community methods or desires do not align with the intent or goals of the developers. If that is true the developers should either do something to enforce their desired intent for the content, clarify and enforce a rules or do nothing and maintain the status quo.

Though I will say as I mentioned and many have echoed in this thread the only many of us want is for someone to try, if the group is offering support the outlier player loses nothing by trying. That is what confuses me you say we should try to be accepting of their preferred method of running a dungeon but not the other way around?

It all boils down to "Get out of my party because I want to clear this 2 minutes faster with someone else".
Except you're still using the DF to acquire that party member.

You're basically saying that you're happy to waste the time of the first tank by kicking them out in order to not 'waste' your time with small trash packs.
Then if you get a second Tank who also pulls small, then you'll just deal with it? Why not just deal with it the first time?

Small pulls are not an impediment to clearing the dungeon. Kicking someone to 'save' yourself a minute off the run is disgusting behaviour.

And for the record, I fall into the camp of Tank setting the pace of the run, as they're the ones who have to work harder for a mass pull compared to smaller pulls.
DPS spam AoE on big and small pulls, Nothing changes for them.
Healers Heal and throw damage if they want regardless of how many mobs are beating the Tanks face in.
Meanwhile, if Tank misses a cooldown, it could very well be a party wipe.


So yeah, Tank should have final say in speedrun or not. The burden of responsibility is higher on that Role than the others.

[cicatriz313]

I think the only time tanking a large pull is harder than tanking a small pull is if you have a dps that single targets and pulls hate off of you and you feel that twinge of annoyance because why is he single pulling?! Other than that, you're making it out to be some drastic endeavor when really it comes down to clicking a cool down which you should be doing anyway, and maybe using different skills which everyone would be doing.

[Fyce]

Small pulls are not an impediment to clearing the dungeon. Kicking someone to 'save' yourself a minute off the run is disgusting behaviour.

Wasting the time of 3 other people because you are stubborn and feel entitled like a diva is even worse.

The burden of responsibility is higher on that Role than the others.

Absolutly not. Stop spreading that false argument. Tanking is not hard and doesn't have more "responsabilities" than anyone else. Especially not more than the healer.
The only "responsability" a tank has, is to be the first person to engage the enemy, and keep the enmity (which translates to: use your skills correctly, the same responsability that everyone else has). That's is. Nothing else. And that's clearly not enough to get a free pass at being a jerk like your posts imply.

[Sylve]

Wasting the time of 3 other people because you are stubborn and feel entitled like a diva is even worse.

So your time is inherently more valuable that theirs then? Remember, They're part of this "time wasting run" too.

Absolutly not. Stop spreading that false argument. Tanking is not hard and doesn't have more "responsabilities" than anyone else. Especially not more than the healer.
The only "responsability" a tank has, is to be the first person to engage the enemy, and keep the enmity (which translates to: use your skills correctly, the same responsability that everyone else has). That's is. Nothing else. And that's clearly not enough to get a free pass at being a jerk like your posts imply.

So just to make a quick comparison, a Tank has to:
-Initiate every pull.
-Memorise which mobs do which attacks and how dangerous each one of those attacks are.
-Memorise mob layouts including the trigger mechanic and spawn location of adds.
-Dodge every bad marker.
-Watch Enmity bars to ensure no one peels.
-Ensure 100% uptime or as close to as humanly possible of Defensive cooldowns.
-Ensure mob packs are positioned perfectly to take advantage of Damage Dealer AoEs.


Meanwhile, the list of Damage Dealer responsibilities:
-Mash AoE.
-Don't stand in the bad.

And Healers:
-Mash AoE / ST nuke.
-Occasionally Curebomb the Tank.
-Sometimes Medica (or your regional equivalent) when AoE goes out.

Also, If Healers and Damage Dealers 'forget' to use a cooldown, no one notices.
Meanwhile, If the Tank 'forgets' to use Cooldowns, they die. Healers screech. Tank gets kicked for "Being bad".
Oh, and lets not forget that one wrong step from a Tank can cause a Cleave induced party wipe. No pressure though.

But no, You're right. Being the Tank is no more responsibility than a Damage Dealer. That's why Tanking is just as popular as Damage Dealing. Right?

[Awha]

You say I am okay with wasting the time of the player, but the same consideration is not offered to the rest of the group? At the core you are saying tank is rare so they are entitled to special treatment. We are players working together not products.

Also you are extremely upselling tanking while downplaying healing and dps to an insulting degree and I do not even heal or play dps roles.

[Physic]

Wasting the time of 3 other people because you are stubborn and feel entitled like a diva is even worse.

Absolutly not. Stop spreading that false argument. Tanking is not hard and doesn't have more "responsabilities" than anyone else. Especially not more than the healer.
The only "responsability" a tank has, is to be the first person to engage the enemy, and keep the enmity (which translates to: use your skills correctly, the same responsability that everyone else has). That's is. Nothing else. And that's clearly not enough to get a free pass at being a jerk like your posts imply.

the responsibility of holding aggro, and surviving it, in this game means;
having initial pull the majority of the time, (Initial hate = increased enmity)
positioning the group so your aoe hate tools land and so minimal enemy attacks hit the group.
and controlling your tp, and when fights end/Begin, since your cooldowns, or tp being low effects how well you can hold agro and survive multiple hits.


Its not rocket science, but the battles are definitely designed such that the tank has more responsibility for pulling, since a failure to properly do the above is more likely to lead to deaths/wipes due to loss of agro/tank death.