Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

[Hustensaft]

It could simply be a comparison to the other healers (not including role actions, since all healers have those).

WHM oGCDs: Presence of Mind, Benediction, Assize, Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Thin Air, Divine Benison, Plenary Indulgence — 8 oGCDs

SCH oGCDs: Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Bane, Rouse, Sacred Soil, Shadow Flare, Lustrate, Indomitability, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Dissipation, Excogitation, Chain Stratagem, Fey Union — 14 oGCDs

AST oGCDs: Lightspeed, Essential Dignity, Draw, Royal Road, Spread, Redraw, Synastry, Time Dilation, Collective Unconscious, Celestial Opposition, Earthly Star (placement and detonation if you have to manually pop it), Minor Arcana, Sleeve Draw — 13 oGCDs (plus, every time you deploy a card, that is also an oGCD move, so I guess we could say 14, technically).


Compared to the other healers, WHM has half of the oGCDs they do, and half of WHM’s oGCDs are on a significantly long cooldown (Presence of Mind, Asylum, Benediction, and Thin Air). Meanwhile, AST does card stuff (at the very least) every 30 seconds; and SCH manages Aetherflow stacks on a 45-second rotation, so they ideally use an oGCD every 15 secs.

That comparison is majorly flawed. If you want to make it even more flawed, how about adding the three undraws to AST?

SCHs oGCDs are limited by Aetherflow (of the 14 listed, 7 are restricted by Aetherflow). ET and DT modify a GCD cast, therefore labelling them as oGCD is just bad. Redraw, RR, Spread and Minor A are tied to the 30 sec Draw CD, so they don't add more value over that. WHMs oGCDs on the other hand always have a value.

You should look on the number of oGCDs each healer gets to cast per minute: SCH is at 7, WHM is at 6.12, and AST is also at 7.

No, in terms of how many oGCD to cast, all three healing specs are fairly similar. You can also argue about the potency value these oGCDs give you per minute (Aetherflows limitation has a massive impact of the potency output)

[Renthas]

I get that part, however, folks are saying WHMS are limited in what ogcd’s they have. I’m mean take the person I quoted, in regards to WHM ogcds he says to allow whm to weave ogcds, how ever limited theirs maybe. That second part has nothing to do with weaving the way it is worded.

What Veis said is correct, I just phrased it poorly. I meant that they have less OGCDs compared to the other healers and on much longer cooldowns.

[Mansion]

What Veis said is correct, I just phrased it poorly. I meant that they have less OGCDs compared to the other healers and on much longer cooldowns.

And Presence of Mind aligns with nothing, with its awkward 150 sec CD instead of 60, 90,120 or 180sec traditional buffs.

[HyoMinPark]

That comparison is majorly flawed. If you want to make it even more flawed, how about adding the three undraws to AST?

SCHs oGCDs are limited by Aetherflow (of the 14 listed, 7 are restricted by Aetherflow). ET and DT modify a GCD cast, therefore labelling them as oGCD is just bad. Redraw, RR, Spread and Minor A are tied to the 30 sec Draw CD, so they don't add more value over that. WHMs oGCDs on the other hand always have a value.

You should look on the number of oGCDs each healer gets to cast per minute: SCH is at 7, WHM is at 6.12, and AST is also at 7.

No, in terms of how many oGCD to cast, all three healing specs are fairly similar. You can also argue about the potency value these oGCDs give you per minute (Aetherflows limitation has a massive impact of the potency output)

Hey, man. I only said that could be the comparison they were making. Not that it was. It had nothing to do with oGCDs per minute - it was simply an assumption that WHM has less oGCDs than the others, which it does. And half of them are on far longer cooldowns than a lot of SCHs or ASTs.

Modifying a GCD or not, DT and ET are still considered oGCD abilities. Especially since they are not on the global cooldown. If they were, they'd be called GCDs. Same with the card actions regardless of frequency of use. I didn't include the Undraw, Empty Road, and Unspread actions as most ASTs tell people to make status off macros specifically to avoid eating an oGCD slot with the skills.

What Veis said is correct, I just phrased it poorly. I meant that they have less OGCDs compared to the other healers and on much longer cooldowns.

Oh look, he literally confirmed what I was assuming.

[Veis_Alveare]

Hey, man. I only said that could be the comparison they were making. Not that it was. It had nothing to do with oGCDs per minute - it was simply an assumption that WHM has less oGCDs than the others, which it does. And half of them are on far longer cooldowns than a lot of SCHs or ASTs.

Modifying a GCD or not, DT and ET are still considered oGCD abilities. Especially since they are not on the global cooldown. If they were, they'd be called GCDs. Same with the card actions regardless of frequency of use. I didn't include the Undraw, Empty Road, and Unspread actions as most ASTs tell people to make status off macros specifically to avoid eating an oGCD slot with the skills.



Oh look, he literally confirmed what I was assuming.

I think the way you're looking at it is still kind of flawed from the perspective of whether or not WHM needs something to open up more weaving windows. You're correct that it has less actual oGCD abilities but once you actually look at those abilities and their uses it's casting them at a similar frequency to the other healers which seems like it was Hustensaft's point; comparatively speaking WHM has a similar need for weaving windows but has no comparable filler spell.

The situation worsens in more casual content where you often don't need a Regen on a tank and casting one is basically just a lost GCD... but sometimes you're tempted by the idea of casting a Regen and then applying DB because "why not?"

I'm not saying WHM is crippled by this but as someone revisiting it after spending a lot of time as an AST it certainly feels poorly composed by comparison and this is one of the main reasons why.

[miraidensetsu]

Moreover, ever since we added astrologian with Heavensward, we have had considerable difficulty in balancing it along with white mage and scholar. Rather than exacerbate a complex situation by adding a fourth healer to the mix, we decided to instead prioritize balancing the three existing healer jobs at this time.

Oh, boy. Here we go again.

The same was said about balancing healer in Stormblood. The result so far is that White Mage is almost at the same place he was at the end of Heavensward.

And frankly, I think that at the end of Shadowbringers we'll have SCH and AST doing better everything WHM can do, while WHM continues bringing nothing that an SCH or an AST can't.

Sight...

[HyoMinPark]

I think the way you're looking at it is still kind of flawed from the perspective of whether or not WHM needs something to open up more weaving windows. You're correct that it has less actual oGCD abilities but once you actually look at those abilities and their uses it's casting them at a similar frequency to the other healers which seems like it was Hustensaft's point; comparatively speaking WHM has a similar need for weaving windows but has no comparable filler spell.

The situation worsens in more casual content where you often don't need a Regen on a tank and casting one is basically just a lost GCD... but sometimes you're tempted by the idea of casting a Regen and then applying DB because "why not?"

I'm not saying WHM is crippled by this but as someone revisiting it after spending a lot of time as an AST it certainly feels poorly composed by comparison and this is one of the main reasons why.

I've been a proponent of giving WHM the ability to better weave its oGCDs since they changed AST's Malefic cast time to 1.5s. I never really stated otherwise in this thread. My post was just an assumption of what someone else was probably thinking - it has very little to do with the sort of changes I would like to see done to the healers going forward.

[Jollyy5]

I just find it funny that this level of outrage is coming from a WHM who hasn't even touched Savage.

You can do normal modes through duty finder, and no one there is going to care about optimization, so why do you? Since at the end of the day, WHM can get the job done.

[NobleWinter]

I just find it funny that this level of outrage is coming from a WHM who hasn't even touched Savage.

You can do normal modes through duty finder, and no one there is going to care about optimization, so why do you? Since at the end of the day, WHM can get the job done.

You don't need to do a single Savage fight to enjoy a well designed class. Being able to double weave abilities while doing considerable dps feels great in any content. And Meta Opinions trickle down to form a personal bias many players feel about a class. MCH can do any content but the stigma of poor design keeps many from ever attempting it and this stigma plaques WHM too, albeit to a much lesser extent given the large portion of people who use it. People like getting AST cards in regular dungeons even tho they are completely unnecessary so just clearing content is not what makes any particular job appealing. Just because you don't need a fluid well designed job to play outside of Savage doesn't mean optimization should be any less desirable.

[miraidensetsu]

I just find it funny that this level of outrage is coming from a WHM who hasn't even touched Savage.

You can do normal modes through duty finder, and no one there is going to care about optimization, so why do you? Since at the end of the day, WHM can get the job done.

Those problems is more visible at savage fights. But those balance problems can be seen even at non-savage fights (except PVP).

And those can affect anyone who mains WHM and wants to try savage. Sure, no one is being prevented from joining some static or party finder just because one mains WHM, but few hides from that WHM that he's a burden and they would prefer an AST.