Dispensers of fiery explosions, light me up... with your ideas for BLM in 5.0

[Kalise]

You have shot down other suggestions of mine before in this matter, the last specifically regarding another iteration of the spell Burst. Forgive me if I misremember, weren't you also calling for Flare and Freeze to be added to the single-target rotation? Because that individual, if I recall, shot down suggestions during that time which enforced the two as AoEs.

I provide my feedback on ideas that get put forth, which is literally the point of using the forums.

Just like people have critiqued ideas of mine, I have the right to critique the ideas of others.

Not to "Shoot down" ideas, but to put forth my own thoughts about maybe things to think about to adjust said ideas to make them more refined.

As far as me "Shooting down" suggestions about Freeze and Flare being relegated to AoE... As I recall, I made a point about not actually getting involved in the discussion around improving their use in an AoE situation. Then later mentioned that the reason for that is because I'd personally prefer if they had some use in ST situations too and then came up with an initial idea for that sort of implementation (However flawed)

Foul is stronger, Thundercloud procs are stronger. Furthermore, Fire IV requires maintenance of its own, becoming unavailable or a bad option periodically throughout the rotation. Even by your reductive definition, this still doesn't necessarily sound like the BLM rotation is flawed in that regard.

Neither Foul nor Thundercloud procs are desired to be used in AF phase.

During AF phase you want to be using only Fire IV and Fire I.

It's not worth it to lose out on a Fire IV cast to use the "Stronger" Foul or TCloud proc because while they are stronger, they're not THAT strong to cover the entire Fire IV you miss due to the limited time you have during an AF phase.

Why does your suggested "spell to break up Fire IV spam" need to be Fire-Aspected?

Because otherwise the potency would need to be absolutely nuts. Meaning that in order to make it work without wrecking UI phase, you'd have to implement some convoluted system that allows it to ONLY be usable in AF.

Which has the risk of further perpetuating the static rotation too, if it's for example built off of using certain skills during AF. Like, say, if it used Astral Hearts which were only built up during AF when using Fire IV, then the rotation would simply be a static "Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire I > New Spell > Fire IV > Fire IV" which wouldn't be much better.

Meanwhile, there already exists a system to limit skill usage during AF. It's called Astral Fire. The literal buff to all Fire skills specifically during AF combined with UI's massive debuff to all fire skills during UI.

Why complicate things just to add in a non-Fire aspected spell during AF phase when you literally can just make a Fire aspected spell and it by default is already designed to be exclusive to the phase?

You seem to be very intent on deliberately misreading what I have to say (and what the others in this thread have to say, it would seem).

The group's total damage suffers when any player dies, but any individual player's damage does not suffer when they still get access to the utility tools that the player who died still gets to use. Nothing about that is complicated.

Weakness does not affect the damage bonus that the other seven players receive from Battle Voice, etc. It does however gimp BLM's only contribution to the raid.

Dying on any job, reduces effectiveness in battle.

While jobs with utility buffs can still get full effectiveness from their buffs on others while Weakened, the flip side is that their buffs get reduced effectiveness if OTHER players are weakened.

None of this makes any particular balancing of a job (Raw DPS vs Utility) at an inherent disadvantage.

If anything, the disadvantages stem more from how personal resources factor into things. For example: RDM has a hard time regaining MP if their Lucid is on CD which limits their ability to Raise spam. SMN has a ridiculously long wind up for their Bahamut burst that is reset outright upon death. BRD has to deal with their Songs being on CD as well as maybe also having to re-apply their DoTs. NIN has to hope their Ninjutsu is ready to be able to get Huton back on. DRG loses all stacks which they had. MNK has to regain their Greased Lightning stacks.

So, if death penalty was a major factor in this sort of balancing, SMN wouldn't be meta. Since, not only is a majority of what they bring based on their own personal damage (Yes they have a Raise and they have Contagion which can buff 2-3 other non-DPS jobs but this is not the major part of why they are wanted in groups) meaning they are affected by Weakness to a near similar degree to BLM, but they ALSO have the crippling factor that is resetting their Bahamut progress.

This is why I doubt your "Proof" about how "Damage as Utility cannot work" when the main issue is simply that SMN has almost the same damage with their minor utility on top. Which is more indicative of BLM/SAM just simply not having enough damage to account for their lack of utility than the notion that personal damage jobs are inherently non-viable.

[Archwizard]

Neither Foul nor Thundercloud procs are desired to be used in AF phase.

During AF phase you want to be using only Fire IV and Fire I.

It's not worth it to lose out on a Fire IV cast to use the "Stronger" Foul or TCloud proc because while they are stronger, they're not THAT strong to cover the entire Fire IV you miss due to the limited time you have during an AF phase.

You use them outside AF phase because you have a limited number of GCDs per phase, the ability to hold them, and would prefer to drop a Blizzard spell due to UI's lower contribution to damage. (650-260) > (650-540), quik maffz.

Remove that choice (or make it a damage loss to hold them that long), and their potencies are high enough you would use them as they came up.

Because otherwise the potency would need to be absolutely nuts. Meaning that in order to make it work without wrecking UI phase, you'd have to implement some convoluted system that allows it to ONLY be usable in AF.

Moot point; AF is entirely a potency boost in the first place and no other benefit (a detriment even, given the additional cost increase), making Fire IV an effective potency of 540. The same reasoning is why we save Foul/T3 for UI phase in the first place.

It's not difficult to grasp an addendum like "Can only be executed while under the effect of Astral Fire," Fire IV literally has the exact same descriptor written in. At any rate, I don't think the mind behind "Penumbral Hearts" should be casting aspersions on what should or shouldn't be considered "convoluted".

Which has the risk of further perpetuating the static rotation too, if it's for example built off of using certain skills during AF. Like, say, if it used Astral Hearts which were only built up during AF when using Fire IV, then the rotation would simply be a static "Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire I > New Spell > Fire IV > Fire IV" which wouldn't be much better.

And once again we circle back to "How many Fire IVs is too many?"

I would highly doubt that whatever changes coming to us in ShB -- without a major rework, at any rate -- will lead to much more significant change to the current rotational model. All we got in Stormblood were Triplecast and Foul, and as you so enjoy pointing out, they literally didn't affect AF at all. "Add 1-2 spells to the AF phase" would be literally more change to it than we've gotten since Fire IV, and the only way we'd see significantly fewer F4s in the rotation would be if they added a replacement filler.

While jobs with utility buffs can still get full effectiveness from their buffs on others while Weakened, the flip side is that their buffs get reduced effectiveness if OTHER players are weakened.

Bit of a non-sequitur to this conversation, given that unless I can affect their survival in some way, my performance and value aren't going to be gauged by other people dying. If enough people are getting Weakness to cancel out whatever utilities you're bringing, that's a completely unrelated problem from your group's Job composition.

So, if death penalty was a major factor in this sort of balancing, SMN wouldn't be meta.

Death penalty is a factor, it's just not assumed when you're at a point in progression where Raises cease to matter.
So either SMN comes out ahead of BLM in spite of its death penalty because it has Resurrect to mitigate other death penalties (hey, it's enough to consider RDMs), or it comes out ahead because it brings near similar damage (particularly with concern to movement-heavy encounters) and group buffs.

[Kalise]

You use them outside AF phase because you have a limited number of GCDs per phase, the ability to hold them, and would prefer to drop a Blizzard spell due to UI's lower contribution to damage. (650-260) > (650-540), quik maffz.

Remove that choice (or make it a damage loss to hold them that long), and their potencies are high enough you would use them as they came up.

Yes, you highlighted what I was eluding to with my statement about not wanting to use said skills during AF, which makes AF phase bland.

Simply removing the choice around using them, doesn't really solve the problem, it merely shifts it over to UI phase, since given you spend the majority of your time in AF it's likely that you will have Foul and Thundercloud being used then if it was not possible to hold them for any length of time (Which would be tricky to actually make happen, given that time in AF is limited by MP, if the case was that you couldn't hold onto these skills at all and they happened to come up after your final F4 so you're out of MP and time on AF you'd be forced to either skip them or drop Enochian... Not exactly fun gameplay)

It would be a better solution though, because given how short UI phases are, it's harder for the staleness to kick in much (Well... It's basically Thunder + Blizzard IV + Fire III if you're not squeezing a Foul in there somewhere)

Moot point; AF is entirely a potency boost in the first place and no other benefit (a detriment even, given the additional cost increase), making Fire IV an effective potency of 540. The same reasoning is why we save Foul/T3 for UI phase in the first place.

It's not moot.

As is the case at the moment, Fire IV is working on an effective 540 potency, this causes it to be the single highest damage skill that is readily available. If anything was to compete with this potency, it would need to be designed in a way where we wouldn't just replace parts of the UI phase with it, so as to allow us to maximize our output within AF using Fire spells to make use of the potency boost it gives.

Making a new Fire aspected skill is the easiest way to make something only useful in AF phase.

It's not difficult to grasp an addendum like "Can only be executed while under the effect of Astral Fire," Fire IV literally has the exact same descriptor written in.

True, though, you'd have to question the reasoning behind such an addendum.

Like, Fire IV and Blizzard IV having the AF/UI lock addendum makes sense because it's literally suggesting "You need to be in tune with Fire/Ice to be able to use these powerful Fire/Ice spells"

Having an Astral Fire lock on say, a Dark aspected spell would be odd.

At any rate, I don't think the mind behind "Penumbral Hearts" should be casting aspersions on what should or shouldn't be considered "convoluted".

What's convoluted about Penumbral Hearts?

We have Umbral Ice (Umbral referring to the Moon blocking the light from the Sun causing an eclipse). We have Astral Fire (Astral referring to stars, such as the Sun).

Then we have Umbral Hearts as a resource to use. This implies a possible "Astral Heart" to have as a second resource to use in a similar manner.

With BLM also being focused around a third element, Lightning. Which currently has no phase associated with it. Thus, I thought up the idea of "Penumbral Hearts" (Penumral referring to when the Earth is blocking part of the light from the Sun leaving the Moon in the outer part of its shadow (Which is called the Penumbra) the effect of which causes a reddish hue on the Moon which is oft referred to as a "Blood Moon")

The name still follows the theme of celestial bodies, without being directly associated with the Sun or the Moon and referring instead to the Earth (Meaning that in this trifecta of celestial bodies, we have Astral being the Sun, Umbral being the Moon and Penumbral being the Earth)

And once again we circle back to "How many Fire IVs is too many?"

No we don't.

You cycle back to that because you're not reading my response to it.

There isn't a definitive answer for "How many Fire IV's is too many?" because that's not even the question that should be being asked. Since the issue isn't the number of Fire IV's that are being cast - Literally you could triple the damage and MP cost of Fire IV and reduce the rotation down to Fire IV > Fire I > Fire IV and it would have the same issue.

The issue being that, Fire IV is our Astral Fire phase filler spell. It's the spell we default back to when we have nothing better to cast. Just like how every other non-combo based job has their own filler skills (Healers have Broil/Malefic/Stone, RDM has Jolt/Impact, SMN has Ruin, BRD has Heavy Shot, BLU has Glower)

But... We simply don't have anything better to cast. Not in Astral Fire phase. Yes, we have stronger skills - Thundercloud proc and Foul have higher potency. But their lenience in when to be cast, combined with the complete lack of any actually worthwhile Ice skills, means that it's never necessary to cast them during Astral Fire phase.

If there was a conditionally better skill to use during AF (Such as how at levels 42-60 we have Firestarter procs to allow us to use a free, instant cast Fire III) or if there was actually worthwhile skills in UI (So that "Saving" TCloud and Foul to use during the time we're actually in that phase wouldn't be a thing) then there wouldn't be this issue of staleness with AF and the Fire IV spam.

The thing is, that neither of the above points are easily solved. The former solution, whereby there is a conditionally better skill to use during AF, is plagued by the 2 main design pitfalls for it:

1) There's the possibility to add in Firestarter type RNG. But people tend to not like DPS being so directly linked to RNG skills.

2) There's the possibility to add in a new resource that can be generated and then expended during AF to utilize a new skill. This has the problem that it can be too consistent. Consistency will cause any more potent skill to simply be slotted in to an appropriate place within the static AF rotation, thus not actually achieving any sense of "Shaking up" the rotation.

The latter solution, requires a rework of core systems for BLM, whereby the entire design of AF/UI gets upended, so that there isn't the dichotomy between "Damage phase" and "Procs phase" and instead it's more of "Damage phase" and "Other damage phase" - With the differences and nuances between them being about resource management, both with MP and potentially other resources that can be expended during UI and generated in AF. Which, if designed well, could also allow for more dynamic gameplay, wherein rotations are less about doing static rotations during predetermined periods of time in each phase and more about adapting to the situation such that maybe you swap between phases more frequently to juggle resources instead of "Bottom out MP > Swap > Regen all MP > Swap"

Now... As a realist, the most likely scenario is that they will take the initial solution and just stick an RNG proc into Astral Fire. Since, that's what they have fueling the other 2 real mages - SMN having Ruin IV procs off pet actions and RDM having Verfire/Verstone procs off their Verthunder/Veraero spells.

Though, while it's certainly the simplest and most likely solution, as a player and forum user, I would like to discuss the concept of "Is it the best solution?", which would include, thinking up potential ways to create alternate solutions and having them assessed by fellow players whom enjoy playing the class - Since any solution should be aimed at making sure that the players of the class will still enjoy playing the class and ideally will get more enjoyment out of playing the class.

Thus, I come up with things that can maybe generate ideas. Since, more ideas put together allows people to take the best parts of multiple ideas and then refine them into the "Best solution"

Is sticking a bunch of Astral and Penumbral Hearts onto the Job gauge and calling it a day the "Best solution"? No, obviously not. But maybe such a thing might provoke someone into having an epiphany and formulating an idea from such a premise.

Like... Maybe Astral Fire phases utilize Fire and Lightning spells to generate Astral Hearts and Penumbral Hearts. Which are then used during Umbral Ice phases to empower Ice and Lightning spells to a competitive level. Creating the aforementioned "Damage Phase" + "Other Damage Phase" style gameplay, with an emphasis on resource management between both phases. - Potentially with such a gameplay shift altering other parts of the job gauge. Like... What if phases no longer had durations or stacks and simply lasted until we swapped them? What if the only timer we managed was Enochian? What if Enochian, instead of simply granting a Polyglot, also put us into a temporary "Penumbral Lightning" phase which had some interesting and cool effect to it that maybe upgraded some skills or something (Maybe this phase is activated using a Polyglot instead of using Foul and wants to be timed for when we have certain CD's available or certain resources generated)

Maybe something else entirely?

I don't know. I'm only one person. There are only a finite number of ideas I can generate in the time I spend thinking about this sort of thing (I.e. The time it takes me to type out each paragraph >.>)

[Lauront]

I see no problem with this.

Although I think the bigger obstacle there is Teraflare being SMN's LB3.

I like the look of it. It's not too dissimilar to Entropic Flame in terms of its fire/laser blast aesthetic. The SMN LB3 has quite a few elaborations to it that should preserve its uniqueness, but I'm guessing you mean in terms of the name. I'd say the ranged LB1 and 2 have closer similarity in terms of the sheer look, but putting aside all constraints for the moment... if you were to combine Flare from FFVIII with Entropic Flame from multiple directions, like some of the raid bosses or the Ascian Prime, that would have a pretty awesome impact for an AOE fire spell. Entropic Flare has a pretty nice ring to it.

Also, I like this iteration of Flare. With some tweaking, either VIII's or the WoFF version could provide a fitting look for a new Fire spell.

[Archwizard]

Making a new Fire aspected skill is the easiest way to make something only useful in AF phase.

Having an Astral Fire lock on say, a Dark aspected spell would be odd.

The easiest, but not the only way. You're still working within the reasoning that Astral Fire should be reserved purely for spells of its element, despite Umbral Ice already being the best/only time for three elements.

If Umbral Ice can support more than one element within its phase, so can Astral Fire. (Better, even, since AF has more GCDs.)
If Blizzard IV exists to boost Fire magic, there is zero reason a Fire spell cannot boost a Thunder, Dark, non- or even multi-elemental spell.
It wouldn't even be a stretch given that many cultures and mythologies treat lightning as "fire from the heavens". It would even fit the naming convention and aesthetic of the phases too -- "Astral" means stars, "Umbral" means shadow, lightning could easily be diametrically opposed to dark, so it could easily be justified to have Astral Fire contain both fire and lightning and Umbral Ice contain both ice and dark.

Hell, consider that AF is just as much a penalty to Fire spell costs as it is a boost to their potency. Having a spell of a different element that shares or naturally overcomes the potency boost but doesn't suffer the cost? Just another tool to play around with.

What's convoluted about Penumbral Hearts?

Umbral Hearts are generated by Blizzard magic during Umbral Ice, to enhance Fire magic. Sequitur, theoretical "Astral Hearts" could be generated by Fire magic during Astral Fire, to bridge with another type of magic. Astral Hearts could either perfectly reflect Umbral Hearts (being generated all at once and consumed one at a time by other spells) or invert them (being generated one at a time and consumed all at once by other spells). Such an addition is an easy, logical, intuitive gateway to altering the Fire phase; a familiar concept to players, turned on its ear.

We could assume that the unprecedented "Penumbral Hearts" would be generated by Lightning spells, but when, how, and for what purpose? As you literally just explained, there's no "Penumbral Lightning" phase, and to add a third phase would require a rather grandiose rework. Even if we assume a third phase is unnecessary for the implementation, your suggestion so far has been that they'd build up to a Burst spell, but therein lies the dilemma: How would Penumbral Hearts be generated? How often? Is it based on the cast, the ticks, RNG, a new spell, the phase in which you cast? How would you balance Burst such that the player isn't simply spamming Thunder to generate Penumbral Hearts, without pushing them to the point of ignoring the new mechanic entirely, and justifying its existence as a separate button on the bar? And most importantly, is it intended as another spell to cram into two GCDs of the UI phase?

It's a lot more than a trait on an existing spell and a new cooldown.

The issue being that, Fire IV is our Astral Fire phase filler spell. It's the spell we default back to when we have nothing better to cast. Just like how every other non-combo based job has their own filler skills (Healers have Broil/Malefic/Stone, RDM has Jolt/Impact, SMN has Ruin, BRD has Heavy Shot, BLU has Glower)

But... We simply don't have anything better to cast. Not in Astral Fire phase. Yes, we have stronger skills - Thundercloud proc and Foul have higher potency. But their lenience in when to be cast, combined with the complete lack of any actually worthwhile Ice skills, means that it's never necessary to cast them during Astral Fire phase.

If there was a conditionally better skill to use during AF (Such as how at levels 42-60 we have Firestarter procs to allow us to use a free, instant cast Fire III) or if there was actually worthwhile skills in UI (So that "Saving" TCloud and Foul to use during the time we're actually in that phase wouldn't be a thing) then there wouldn't be this issue of staleness with AF and the Fire IV spam.

So far we're in agreement. If Fire IV is a spell intended for use when we have nothing stronger, there is room (ignoring "necessity") for something stronger within Astral Fire; we just need a compelling reason to use it outside Umbral Ice.
Up to this point most of the argument has boiled down to the cosmetic aspects, and where we believe Thunder/Foul belong in such a system.

But you cannot then turn around and complain that a stronger spell makes only a 1-2 GCD difference from the old rotation, unless you repurpose the filler spells or rework the job completely. Moving from one expansion to the next should be a series of iterative evolutions, not jarring reworks every 10 levels unless something is fundamentally broken, and we have very little room for new tools to be added in an expansion (with each one taking away space for another).

I like the look of it. It's not too dissimilar to Entropic Flame in terms of its fire/laser blast aesthetic. The SMN LB3 has quite a few elaborations to it that should preserve its uniqueness, but I'm guessing you mean in terms of the name. I'd say the ranged LB1 and 2 have closer similarity in terms of the sheer look, but putting aside all constraints for the moment... if you were to combine Flare from FFVIII with Entropic Flame from multiple directions, like some of the raid bosses or the Ascian Prime, that would have a pretty awesome impact for an AOE fire spell. Entropic Flare has a pretty nice ring to it.

Also, I like this iteration of Flare. With some tweaking, either VIII's or the WoFF version could provide a fitting look for a new Fire spell.

The WoFF version kinda looks an awful lot like RDM's Verflare, while VIII's reminds me of Foul "but with fire".

An Entropy-based spell could be interesting though, and fitting with BLM's theme of elemental destruction. And I do have a soft spot for massive energy beams.

[Lauront]

Aside from the fact that I like the way word sounds, just some rudimentary thoughts which come to mind... chaos and darkness are tied to one another in the setting, in terms of the former propagating the latter - BLM’s shift between two extremes in order to build up power (Astral) and then reversing gears to ‘cool off’ (Umbral) at least ties in conceptually to a build up of entropy. The exact mechanic need not tie into the specific shift between the two (merely maintaining the stances a la Polyglot could suffice), but whether through Polyglot or some other mechanic it creates a strong conceptual basis as an accumulated ‘resource’ to bring in spells tied to chaos/darkness.

[Lauront]

... thinking on it, maybe something that starts to build as you consume both an Astral and an Umbral Heart by whatever means, so essentially replacing them as they’re consumed.

[Archwizard]

... thinking on it, maybe something that starts to build as you consume both an Astral and an Umbral Heart by whatever means, so essentially replacing them as they’re consumed.

Let's maybe not put the cart before the horse here -- we don't even have Astral Hearts, it's just a theoretical tool to be added.

[Grimoire-M]

Out of curiosity, what if you reworked UI spells to refund MP instead of costing MP while in UI, and always kept BLM's mana regeneration frozen when in either stance during combat? Then you could fix all of the problems with the UI rotation however you wanted.

[Archwizard]

Out of curiosity, what if you reworked UI spells to refund MP instead of costing MP while in UI

That has been previously suggested (by Kalise if I'm not mistaken). I can't recall if or why this idea was previously rejected, but I'm not entirely against it; it defeats the point of giving UI a timer if you're never going to be in phase for even half of it.

Perhaps the concern was that if UI becomes a matter of refunding MP exclusively through Ice spells, you wouldn't want to use non-Blizzard spells during the phase so as to limit your time in it? Even so I would suggest a compromise, of reducing UI's innate Refresh rate (but not removing it) and using Blizzard spells to accelerate it by additionally refunding a % of MP on each cast. That way you could at least theoretically cram a couple more GCDs into it without devastating the rotation.