Dispensers of fiery explosions, light me up... with your ideas for BLM in 5.0

[Lauront]

I mean we're essentially arguing over the name at this point. Comet usually being non-elemental is a mechanical choice, but it is easier to relate a spell like it to Fire (which is the context in which it was proposed, a high powered Fire spell; Burst came up for Thunder, given its own history), than a spell like Death or Warp. Apocalypse seems to have quite a bit of variety in its design, ranging from looking similar to Thunder IV, to appearances not too far off from the RDM LB3.

Even if the spell strikes from high, like Comet would, the impact/explosion effect is something that can be designed to not look like the LBs. Although you could use spells like Apocalypse or Ardor, since they're basically empty vessels in a sense that the name is non-descript, it's a disagreement over naming convention choice.

[Kalise]

And therein lies the heart of the matter. So far every suggestion to add onto the Fire phase -- to squeeze in an extra spell or two in between F4s -- you have looked down on because we would still be casting majority F4 in AF. All this and you still have yet to actually say how many F4s per AF you'd consider a satisfactory number, yet still claim any non-zero proposal is too high.

How many suggestions have there been?

(You know, outside of the what like 3-4 suggestions I have made myself)

I only recall actually "Looking down" on your single suggestion, which is "Shaking up" the AF phase by... Just tossing in an oGCD weave...

Meanwhile, the GCD rotation would continue to be the exact same thing of Fire IV > All with the only deviation being whatever is the most efficient way to renew AF. (At the moment, Fire I)

Outside of this, it's MY suggestions that have been shot down by OTHER people, with the same notion that I'm looking at suggestions with. Either it promotes the exactly the same sort of rotation as now (3x Powerful spell > 1x AF refresh spell > 3x Powerful spell)

Meanwhile, the ideal option is to have more diversity in the rotation. Sort of like how in UI, sometimes you throw out a Foul. Sometimes you have an insta-Thunder to cast. Sometimes you have to hard cast Thunder. This makes it vary and prevents it from being stales (Even though it's literally only 2-3 GCD's)

As opposed to always knowing that AF is going to be some variant of 313. Maybe with a high SpS build getting away with 414 with use of Convert for extra MP.

"How many Fire IV's are satisfactory?" as many as are required to fill in the time between using other, better skills is my answer.

The spell that you just spam ad infinitum, should be your filler. Your last resort when your stronger skills are unavailable - Due to procs, special resources or CD's.

Your filler shouldn't also be your best skill. Since that leads to stale gameplay.

Well, SMN/SCH will still cast majority Ruin, WHM will still DPS with majority Stone, AST will still DPS with majority Malefic. The only reason RDM gets a pass is because it has two of every skill and reason to alternate literally every one.

Healers are an awful example to use, because I'm vehemently against them having essentially single button rotations (Which is the majority of what they do, their only variance is putting up 1-2 DoTs...)

SMN is different, because they want to be using Ruin IV all the time, however, they cannot because it has to proc to be available. In addition, they have their Trance which makes their Ruin instant cast, which changes the flow of their gameplay. In addition, they have their Bahamut phase where they switch to using Ruin III to ensure the most Wyrmwave casts. In addition, they manage 2 DoTs with different durations that aren't 100% uptime with their oGCD applicator.

RDM is also different because they shift what they cast based off procs. If they don't proc Verfire or Verstone then they will alternate between using Jolt and Impact for their filler.

Both of these Mages have skills they WANT to use over their filler skills (SMN wants to use DoT's if they're about to fall off and Ruin IV otherwise. RDM wants to use Verfire + Verstone and if those don't proc, Impact.) but are conditional in when they are available or appropriate to use.

BLM in AF is not the same. It is more like the Healers that only have 2-3 damaging skills to spend GCD's on. Its filler is also its best cast (At least Healers prioritize applying their DoTs over their nuke...)

They're usually only "distinct" in that one is a downgrade to the other. And all the caster LB1/2s are already visual downgrades of Meteor.

There's nothing stopping them creating a distinction.

For example, I'm suggesting Comet be a single target Fire damage nuke.

As opposed to an AoE unaspected nuke.

Thus, the Comet skill could use a much smaller projectile, there could be much more fire on the projectile and the impact could have flashy fiery effects much as you'd expect from something that is an upgrade from the current Fire III and Fire IV visuals.

And if the fix is purely cosmetic, why does it matter if we get Comet? Why wouldn't any other spell fit, like the Burst spell that keeps being called for?

Because not a lot of other spells could substitute in for a Fire Aspected spell?

Burst is Lightning, not Fire.

Doomsday... Is literally the same thing, except it would be MORE powerful than the LB3 due to being a higher class of the same line of "Rocks fall, everyone dies" spells.

Apocalypse... Is often depicted as a lightning storm. In VIII it's some sort of Ion Cannon type laser that then explodes.

I suppose there's Megaflare and Gigaflare that could work. Though, I expect it'd be confusing with the already implemented Flare and the current naming system.

[Kabooa]

BLM in AF is not the same. It is more like the Healers that only have 2-3 damaging skills to spend GCD's on. Its filler is also its best cast (At least Healers prioritize applying their DoTs over their nuke...)

Yes, Black mage is not the same.

Almost all their gameplay decisions are based around the encounter forcing them to move, and how to best maintain their uptime while not frivolously using their movement tools that would leave them completely unable to do anything during extended movement.

[Archwizard]

How many suggestions have there been?
I only recall actually "Looking down" on your single suggestion, which is "Shaking up" the AF phase by... Just tossing in an oGCD weave...

You have shot down other suggestions of mine before in this matter, the last specifically regarding another iteration of the spell Burst. Forgive me if I misremember, weren't you also calling for Flare and Freeze to be added to the single-target rotation? Because that individual, if I recall, shot down suggestions during that time which enforced the two as AoEs.

It's a 31-page thread that's almost 2.5 months old, I'm not going to go skim for every example.

The spell that you just spam ad infinitum, should be your filler. Your last resort when your stronger skills are unavailable - Due to procs, special resources or CD's.

Your filler shouldn't also be your best skill. Since that leads to stale gameplay.

Foul is stronger, Thundercloud procs are stronger. Furthermore, Fire IV requires maintenance of its own, becoming unavailable or a bad option periodically throughout the rotation. Even by your reductive definition, this still doesn't necessarily sound like the BLM rotation is flawed in that regard.

SMN is different
RDM is also different

As well they should be, that's why there are multiple caster jobs. There's no rule that says "every DPS rotation must have the same skeleton".

BLM in AF is not the same. It is more like the Healers that only have 2-3 damaging skills to spend GCD's on. Its filler is also its best cast (At least Healers prioritize applying their DoTs over their nuke...)

Combined with your previous statements about not wanting to hardcast Thunder, I would say that warrants some critical feedback in itself. If the full potency of Thunder III (give or take 1-2 ticks) doesn't outweigh Fire IV outside of Thundercloud procs, that should be addressed.

Because not a lot of other spells could substitute in for a Fire Aspected spell?

Why does your suggested "spell to break up Fire IV spam" need to be Fire-Aspected? We have two other elements to account for during the Fire phase -- Thunder and Unaspected (Dark?). If Blizz 4's value is entirely in enhancing Fire spells, I see no reason not to have Fire IV build up to or enhance another element. In fact, if anything it could make the elements at the BLM's disposal somewhat less disparate.
All it needs to be is more cost-efficient than a F4 and only castable during AF (the latter of which being why we don't use Foul/T4 for the purpose you suggest), and the rotation will work itself around it.

I suppose there's Megaflare and Gigaflare that could work. Though, I expect it'd be confusing with the already implemented Flare and the current naming system.

I see no problem with this.

Although I think the bigger obstacle there is Teraflare being SMN's LB3.

[Llugen]

Oh yeah, I forgot the part where whenever a BLM dies, the boss gets healed.

My bad.

You seem to be very intent on deliberately misreading what I have to say (and what the others in this thread have to say, it would seem).

The group's total damage suffers when any player dies, but any individual player's damage does not suffer when they still get access to the utility tools that the player who died still gets to use. Nothing about that is complicated.

Weakness does not affect the damage bonus that the other seven players receive from Battle Voice, etc. It does however gimp BLM's only contribution to the raid.

Also, for what it's worth, the point of this thread is for us to critique each others' suggestions and through discussion breed new ones. I don't think "shooting down" suggestions has any negative implication or connotation to it, it's the reason we're here.



I definitely agree that simply spamming Fire IV for most of your damage on BLM is poor design, especially since the skills you build up and/or are based on luck (Thundercloud, Foul) feel less rewarding and almost even bothersome at times. I feel like I should never have to dread getting a Thundercloud simply because it's a loss to use either because the remaining timer is too long or it causes me to sacrifice a Fire IV/is in a bad spot in the rotation. Here are some suggestions on how I might fix that:

-Let the Thunder DoT timer be additive instead of refreshing it (so, Thunder III now adds 24 seconds to the existing timer up to 60 seconds so no ticks are ever wasted during full uptime)
-Let the remaining DoT potency of Thunder be inflicted to the target as part of the initial hit of the Thundercloud (this could also create a really strong burst hit with Sharpcast > Thunder into Thunder again)
-Let all Thunder spells refresh your current Astral/Umbral timer, giving you another Fire IV in Astral over using Fire I if timed properly
-Increase the DoT timer on Thunder III to 30 seconds giving Thunder III cloud a total potency of 870 (before Enochian), making it much more worthwhile to use over Fire IV


I also really like the thought behind PVP's Thunder Ready mechanic and I would really like it if they could implement something similar for normal content. My previous "thesis" in this thread is that BLM really needs more windows for weaving and the best way to do this in my opinion is through reliable procs. Perhaps "if you're able to use four Fire IVs within the timer of Thunder, you are granted a Thundercloud" or the like. I also feel like a good buff to Convert, if they intend to keep it at 180s cooldown, would be to give you a free Firestarter and Thundercloud upon use. Thundercloud on this one might be gratuitous, but the free Firestarter would at least allow you to refresh your timer to make up for the 2 extra Fire IVs you have to cast within the window.


A suggestion I'd made in Sfia's thread about a year ago was that perhaps as a reward for maintaining your Enochian timer each successive Foul you cast does +10% damage up to double damage. This would, as stated, encourage players to maintain Enochian and utilize Foul procs tactfully.

[Archwizard]

A suggestion I'd made in Sfia's thread about a year ago was that perhaps as a reward for maintaining your Enochian timer each successive Foul you cast does +10% damage up to double damage. This would, as stated, encourage players to maintain Enochian and utilize Foul procs tactfully.

While I do appreciate the intent behind this, if it stacked that high and you, for any reason, lost that stack -- death, mistiming a Fire cast or a Transpose while moving, miscasting a Blizzard spell, etc -- you're put back potentially several minutes in the rotation. SMN is already considered problematic enough with its 2-3 minute buildup to Demi-Bahamut, and even they can't manage to screw it up while alive...

[Llugen]

Oh, another good quality of life improvement would be a cooldown similar to SAM's Meditate so you can stand still and maintain Astral/Umbral III without having to juggle transpose once in a while during downtime and start the next phase without having to hardcast Blizzard/Fire III.

One more: a skill that uses your Polyglot but causes your next ~5 casts to have the potency that Foul would have had if you could have used it (another downtime skill) or perhaps your next Foul has double potency to compensate. This might also give some synergy with Contagion/Trick Attack if you forego using every other Foul not in the burst window but instead used it for a souped up one during the window. It would also be handy for those pesky dungeon pulls where you lose a Foul cast because the tank is pulling at the speed of a snail.

While I do appreciate the intent behind this, if it stacked that high and you, for any reason, lost that stack -- death, mistiming a Fire cast or a Transpose while moving, miscasting a Blizzard spell, etc -- you're put back potentially several minutes in the rotation. SMN is already considered problematic enough with its 2-3 minute buildup to Demi-Bahamut, and even they can't manage to screw it up while alive...

This is pretty true, I suppose I perceived it as "extra/bonus" damage rather than "required" damage, but in practice you're probably right. This idea might be better served in Eureka-like content, where maybe each successful spell you cast gives you +1% damage up up to +100% and then you just have to do your best not to stand in the aoes or pull enmity.

[Archwizard]

Oh, another good quality of life improvement would be a cooldown similar to SAM's Meditate so you can stand still and maintain Astral/Umbral III without having to juggle transpose once in a while during downtime and start the next phase without having to hardcast Blizzard/Fire III.

I had a thought about that a while ago, adding a toggle skill like the AST Sects (try saying that 10 times fast) that pauses your AF/UI/Poly timers until your next cast.

Perhaps as a replacement for Transpose, provided we also get a trait to enter Umbral Ice for free at low MP.

This is pretty true, I suppose I perceived it as "extra/bonus" damage rather than "required" damage, but in practice you're probably right.

Unfortunately it is quite difficult to come up with a true "extra/bonus" effect in min-maxed content.

[Llugen]

Call it Aetherial Stasis, if you will. I'd also rather it not stop your Polyglot timer, as the only time that would be a good thing is if you have an unused proc and it's at ~28 seconds; I'd rather just have the other skill that lets you consume it at some benefit.

I don't want to see them actually remove transpose I just don't want it to be a part of the main rotation in any situation, hence the aforementioned adjustment suggestion(s) to Freeze giving you a proc at 0 MP to put you back in Umbral Ice III for free. Juggling while you're running through a dungeon seems pretty fair and having it just in case you really do make a rotational oopsie is pretty important, but it's such a buzzkill to have to wait on that poorly timed MP tick after Flaring (on top of having to use two more single target spells in a massive mob, but I digress).

Automatically putting you in Umbral Ice at low MP would be a mistake, I think, because there should be at least some punishment for botching the rotation and then there's the matter of how much MP specifically it should do it at, especially with regards to casting Flare at as low of MP as possible (in theory).

[Archwizard]

Call it Aetherial Stasis, if you will. I'd also rather it not stop your Polyglot timer, as the only time that would be a good thing is if you have an unused proc and it's at ~28 seconds; I'd rather just have the other skill that lets you consume it at some benefit.

Okay now I'm a little scared, I was almost about to propose to call it Metaphysical Stasis before I saw your post.

Although the idea was more that, as AF/UI are not ticking down and therefore you are in no danger of losing Polyglot, you shouldn't be able to advance it at zero effort either.

Automatically putting you in Umbral Ice at low MP would be a mistake, I think, because there should be at least some punishment for botching the rotation and then there's the matter of how much MP specifically it should do it at, especially with regards to casting Flare at as low of MP as possible (in theory).

Oh I absolutely agree and didn't mean to imply anything automatic, I meant more along the lines of what you said, proccing a free Ice spell (Freeze, Blizz 3) at 0 MP or after using Flare. (Personally I see no issue with casting Flare to proc such an effect in single-target, as I have myself encountered the unfortunate-if-rare scenario of pushing myself to too little MP to cast Blizz 3.)

Call it Absolute Zero, if you will.