Dispensers of fiery explosions, light me up... with your ideas for BLM in 5.0

[Kalise]

To be fair, I don't think there's a need to have multiple types of "Hearts" stacked on the gauge, depending on how they are executed. Umbral Hearts are already consumed by every Fire spell (if not cleared outright by Flare), so if for instance...

Need to?

No. We can literally continue spamming Fire IV with Umbral Hearts (If we even bother to cast anything in UI phase other than maybe a Foul or Thunder)

Could do?

Sure. It shouldn't be too difficult to design something that doesn't look like butt.

I fear we are quickly running on tracking too much in the job gauge (between Polyglot, AF/UI and Hearts), and the only reason to even consider Astral Hearts would be if they were exclusive with Umbral.

Really it depends on what you mean by "Tracking"

Personally, I don't actually give a damn about what the gauge says about AF/UI stacks, or the Enochian timer.

Since they aren't important.

Once you hit level 40 you basically don't really spend much time outside 3 stacks of AF/UI. Since your ST rotation revolves around B3/F3 which instantly swaps over and generates 3 stacks. It's merely AoE rotations where you Transpose after Flare (Though, why Ice spells still cost MP I have no idea... If they didn't then you'd B3 after Flare)

Enochian... Well... I'm hardly going to let it drop now am I? Since not only is it directly tied to AF/UI uptime, but also a prerequisite for using F4/B4... Maybe at best, I'll hold on to a Polyglot stack for 20+ seconds to time it so I can double Foul within a burst window.

Even Umbral Hearts you don't really "Track" since you just do your normal rotation but part of it is cheaper.

The same thing would be the case for Astral/Penumbral Hearts. You really wouldn't care, because if they were being made a prerequisite to cast a stronger spell (Such as Burst) then your skill would activate regardless of your tracking (And, potencies permitting, it wouldn't necessarily be advantageous to cast additional Heart generators than you would within your normal rotation)

But really...

We could do with something that can help shake up the rather stale rotation that is looking to be forever 313 during AF and Thunder > B4 (> Foul) during UI.

Like even with your suggested Burst skill, it's still a matter of just doing your rotation but you weave an oGCD Burst after your 3rd F4, while it's still a 313.

It's why I mentioned potentially changing Umbral Hearts so its something a little more interactive than "Just do what you were going to do anyway" and allowing Astral Hearts to be something that shakes up the 313 AF phase.

Allowing Umbral and Penumbral Hearts to be dedicated to making UI phase not total garbage - With the caveat that these are temporary and gained over possibly multiple rotations (I.e. If Thunder generated a Penumbral Heart, that's 1 stack per rotation, outside movement using TC procs)

Like, if I was to spitball something... Maybe like, having Fire IV generate Astral Hearts which then power up your Fire I turning it into (Placholder Names) Fira, which does more potency and guarantees a Firestarter proc which lets you use an upgraded Fire III (Called... Lets say, Firaga) and then casting that allows you to spend your final Heart on Comet.

So your AF phase is more like Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire IV > Fira > Firaga > Comet.

Maybe there will also be a cooldown that allows you to instantly get 3 stacks of Astral Hearts. So you can set up for a burst window by just doing Fire IV's during AF and then during the burst window you Fira > Firaga > Comet > Refresh Hearts > Fira > Firaga > Comet.

You know... Trying to mix up the rotation somewhat by making it sometimes advantageous to deviate from 313 to manipulate your resources.

Maybe there could be something similar during UI, where you spend UH's on Blizzara, Blizzaga and a not trash Freeze and then follow up with a Burst if you have one ready?

And again... really don't think we need Comet, when it's basically Skyshard, and Meteor is already our LB3.

Again "Need". No. We don't "Need" anything new. Technically.

But Comet is cool. It's also something that won't just be "Fire V" or "Fire VI" or "Fire VII"

[Archwizard]

Need to?

No. We can literally continue spamming Fire IV with Umbral Hearts (If we even bother to cast anything in UI phase other than maybe a Foul or Thunder)

You misunderstand. I was simply trying to explain that the existing UI element itself could functionally fit in Astral Hearts without needing to be changed, using the same area of the design space as the existing Umbral Hearts. The only reason to change it would be for the addition of a resource that wasn't mutually exclusive, which could potentially lead to visual clutter anyway.

But I should bring up that the reductive reasoning of attacking the use of the word "need" in its literal/technical sense rather than within its context is terribly unproductive "Well, Actually"-ing, and only leads to one's ensuing argument defeating itself by highlighting how "this is a game and nothing we say or do about it will matter in the grand scheme." I would suggest refraining from such a diversionary tactic moving forward as any ensuing discussion would be non-sequitur to the topic.

Personally, I don't actually give a damn about what the gauge says about AF/UI stacks, or the Enochian timer.

Perhaps, but it does have its place (particularly when level downsynched and forced into using weaker spells than F4 to inflict damage, or after using Transpose), and if a concern is that existing elements at the core of the design are irrelevant, wouldn't a more constructive area of discussion be expounding on ways to make it relevant again, or streamlining the design for efficiency, rather than suggesting more elaborate evolutions purely for complication's sake?

Like even with your suggested Burst skill, it's still a matter of just doing your rotation but you weave an oGCD Burst after your 3rd F4, while it's still a 313.

My reasoning for it being oGCD was actually that we already fight a pretty strict timer with AF, and that the assumption we'll get 6 F4s before swapping to UI is based purely off of a reasonable spell speed and our current MP consumption rate.
The goal was rather to encourage using Thunder during the AF phase (hence the small refund of MP), having Burst consume the DoT and then reapplying it in preparation of the next Burst. This would also give time during the UI phase to use more Blizzard spells. Given how critical you are of AF phase being F4 spam and UI being Thunder/Foul, I would think this would appeal to you.

Again "Need". No. We don't "Need" anything new. Technically.

But Comet is cool. It's also something that won't just be "Fire V" or "Fire VI" or "Fire VII"

Sure. I'm just saying that there are other spells that could just as easily fit the position of Comet within the rotation, especially as we already have the aesthetic covered. Within the same vein of logic where Comet would 'feel' cool to use, to downgrade Comet to just a part of our base rotation would just rehash the current Limit Break animations and make said LBs 'feel' less special. I'd much rather keep the spells feeling distinctive, and there yet remains a well of classic Black spells to draw from without repeating yet another we already have.

Plus if we get to the point where Fire V/I/I were considered possibilities, we'd be discussing cutting out half the existing Fire spells first, if only to avoid button bloat; we're already at that point for Fire 2 and Blizz 2. At least BLM is better than most classes with this in that regard, as most of our spell upgrades have distinctive purposes from one another, rather than just being potency buffs.

[Kalise]

You misunderstand. I was simply trying to explain that the existing UI element itself could functionally fit in Astral Hearts without needing to be changed, using the same area of the design space as the existing Umbral Hearts. The only reason to change it would be for the addition of a resource that wasn't mutually exclusive.

And I was trying to convey that having multiple stacks on the gauge can functionally work.

It all depends on what design(s) are thought of that use them.

Essentially, saying "We could get up to 3 unique Hearts that stack up simultaneously"

As a way to allow freedom of design, rather than trying to restrict to "Well, this is what the job gauge looks like, we have to think of designs that work with that"

Like, there's no reason we can't have Astral/Umbral Hearts sharing the same spot on the gauge, just like we do with the AF/UI crystal stacks.

Just, I wanted to point out that we aren't necessarily restricted to ONLY that option and ONLY designs that work around mutually exclusive Astral/Umbral Hearts.

Perhaps, but it does have its place (particularly when level downsynched and forced into using weaker spells than F4 to inflict damage, or after using Transpose)

In down sync'd content, there's even LESS reason to actually pay attention to stacks. Since all your spells are generating stacks anyway. Pre-F3 when you're in AF your options are... F1 or F2. It doesn't matter if you're 1 or 3 stacks (Well, if you're 3 stacks you're level 40+ and thus have F3 + B3) you're using your one skill over and over and it's generating your stacks.

if the question is that existing elements at the core of the design are irrelevant, wouldn't a more constructive area of discussion be expounding on ways to make it relevant again, or discussing means to streamline the design for efficiency, rather than suggesting more elaborate evolutions purely for complication's sake?

Making stacks relevant is impossible unless you rework AF an UI phases completely.

Streamlining, would likely end up in removing the Stacks mechanic entirely and just having the traits at the relevant levels buff the phases up inherently. Which would free up F3 and B3 to be more useful than "Phase swap skills" (Outside of level 42-60 where Firestarter procs are used for DPS)

You could also further streamline and remove the time limit on phases. So your entire rotation is fuelled only by your MP needs (Which could be interesting, it could open up some MP management dynamics to use expensive and hard hitting Fire skills by swapping to UI just to get that extra bit of MP to fire them off)

An alternative is to scrap the AF/UI mechanic in its entirety and just make Fire spells inherently stronger and cost a bunch of MP and Ice spells free and restore MP. Thus the only Timer/Phase you need to care about is then Enochian. Which could maybe be fed into with resource management of Hearts (I.e. Expending Hearts furthers Enochian by X seconds, getting you closer to a Foul cast)

My reasoning for it being oGCD was actually that we already fight a pretty strict timer with AF, and that the assumption we'll get 6 F4s before swapping to UI is based purely off of a reasonable spell speed and our current MP consumption rate.

Well, ideally, that's the thing I'd look to challenge. At the moment, we're on a strict timer with AF because we want to use F4 above all else and F4 doesn't refresh AF.

But this is what causes the staleness in the rotation. Because you basically want to cast nothing but F4 during AF as it is the single most damaging Fire skill available (Unlike during levels 42-60 where F3 is stronger than F1 but costs more MP and has a longer cast time making it unappealing outside of Firestarter procs) with the only deviation being the single F1 as the most efficient way to refresh the duration of AF to let us spend the rest of our MP on F4's.

Thus, we could do with something that seeks to usurp F4 as a spell to cast during AF, albeit conditionally. So that we want to do something other than cast infinite F4's.

Though, the issue tends to be... What to do. Since, we don't like RNG procs being a heavy influence on overall DPS... But any sort of guaranteed build up will lead into a similarly robotic gameplay.

This would also give time during the UI phase to use more Blizzard spells. Given how critical you are of AF phase being F4 spam and UI being Thunder/Foul, I would think this would appeal to you.

The issue for me is that it likely still won't make you want to do anything other than F4 as GCD's in AF.

Even if it does gobble up the Thunder, it's still a DPS loss to actually hard cast it in AF (Heck, it's technically a DPS loss to hard cast it in UI too... Outside it leading to a DPS gain if you have TC procs in the future)

Also, "Give more time to use Blizzard spells in UI" - Oh right. 1 more GCD worth of Blizzard spells. Gee, I can hardly control my excitement...

I think my feelings on UI being 2 GCD's as maximum has been shown enough in this thread.

Within the same vein of logic where Comet would 'feel' cool to use, to downgrade Comet to just a part of our base rotation would just rehash the current Limit Break animations and make said LBs 'feel' less special.

Well, that depends entirely on how its animated.

It doesn't necessarily have to be animated as this giant rock slamming down like 1 second after the cast with a low "BLAM"

It could just be a large fireball appearing over the targets head and then crashing down in a blazing inferno.

Still "Comet"-y but while still retaining a distinct visual over the LB effects.

Plus if we get to the point where Fire V/I/I were considered possibilities, we'd be discussing cutting out half the existing Fire spells first, if only to avoid button bloat; we're already at that point for Fire 2 and Blizz 2.

It's most likely that Fire V/VI/VII would just end up being traits to boost up the potency of already existing Fire skills at this point.

Buffing up F1 into Fire V which does the same thing, but with more potency. F3 into Fire VI which does the same thing, but with more potency. F4 into Fire VII which again, same thing, more potency.

With Fire II being left to rot because it has already been usurped by Flare...

[Lauront]

Meteor and Comet are distinct spells and have often been separated in previous titles. Given how rarely BLM gets to use their LB, I don't mind if it looks a little similar to it, but there's ways to distinguish the two. I liked the idea of it unleashing a visual effect like this when it strikes.

You could also further streamline and remove the time limit on phases. So your entire rotation is fuelled only by your MP needs (Which could be interesting, it could open up some MP management dynamics to use expensive and hard hitting Fire skills by swapping to UI just to get that extra bit of MP to fire them off)

An alternative is to scrap the AF/UI mechanic in its entirety and just make Fire spells inherently stronger and cost a bunch of MP and Ice spells free and restore MP. Thus the only Timer/Phase you need to care about is then Enochian. Which could maybe be fed into with resource management of Hearts (I.e. Expending Hearts furthers Enochian by X seconds, getting you closer to a Foul cast)

I wouldn't be opposed to changes along those lines, if they could develop it in such a way as to make them interesting. You'd at least remove the inherent constraint the UI phase places on ice and even thunder spell usage, and it could pave the way to building to a resource usage based power up phase. Of course, the following:

Though, the issue tends to be... What to do. Since, we don't like RNG procs being a heavy influence on overall DPS... But any sort of guaranteed build up will lead into a similarly robotic gameplay.

...would remain an issue, but at least without the phases placing an additional constraint on when spells need to be used.

[Kalise]

Meteor and Comet are distinct spells and have often been separated in previous titles. Given how rarely BLM gets to use their LB, I don't mind if it looks a little similar to it, but there's ways to distinguish the two. I liked the idea of it unleashing a visual effect like this when it strikes.

I'm partial to something like Giga Fire from Disgaea for an animation. Fiery doom for everyone! :3

(Also note: Omega/Tera spells from that game should totally be SMN skills )

[Archwizard]

Thus, we could do with something that seeks to usurp F4 as a spell to cast during AF, albeit conditionally. So that we want to do something other than cast infinite F4's.

And therein lies the heart of the matter. So far every suggestion to add onto the Fire phase -- to squeeze in an extra spell or two in between F4s -- you have looked down on because we would still be casting majority F4 in AF. All this and you still have yet to actually say how many F4s per AF you'd consider a satisfactory number, yet still claim any non-zero proposal is too high.

Well, SMN/SCH will still cast majority Ruin, WHM will still DPS with majority Stone, AST will still DPS with majority Malefic. The only reason RDM gets a pass is because it has two of every skill and reason to alternate literally every one.
It's not a fault of the class design if it has any spell it wants to maximize -- only if it literally never has a reason to use anything else. In that regard, BLM is one of the least egregious examples.

As matters current stand we're working within the confines of a 13 second timer, with cast times longer than our GCD. Were the timer any longer, we might have reason to do anything more with AF/UI phases, but they would have to rebalance Polyglot and the time investment of Foul. Were our cast times, costs and regeneration speed any lower, we also might have reason to do more with the AF/UI phases, but none of those changes would bring much satisfaction to players nor come without severe rebalancing (not to mention missing even more casts during any movement period).

Meteor and Comet are distinct spells and have often been separated in previous titles. Given how rarely BLM gets to use their LB, I don't mind if it looks a little similar to it, but there's ways to distinguish the two.

They're usually only "distinct" in that one is a downgrade to the other. And all the caster LB1/2s are already visual downgrades of Meteor.

[Lauront]

I don't see it as a particularly great issue, as there's plenty of ways to simply differentiate it visually. Caster LB1/2 differ in terms of how great a radius and how much damage they do, anyway, so there's that. This would impact a much smaller radius, so when you add in a differing visual effect, it's no worse than DRG's Mirage Dive being a micro-version of its LB3.

[Archwizard]

I don't see it as a particularly great issue, as there's plenty of ways to simply differentiate it visually. Caster LB1/2 differ in terms of how great a radius and how much damage they do, anyway, so there's that. This would impact a much smaller radius, so when you add in a differing visual effect, it's no worse than DRG's Mirage Dive being a micro-version of its LB3.

Aside from Dragoons throughout the series basically only having Jump, rather than an untapped arsenal of spells like Apocalypse, Ardor, Death, Warp, etc.

And melee LB1/2 being distinct from Dragoon's LB3.

[Lauront]

Then design a graphic that doesn't look like LB1/2. Problem solved. It's not like 1 and 2 even look similar in the first place, with 2 being more like a firestorm.

Barring Ardor, none of those spells have much to do with a Fire spell.

[Archwizard]

Meteor and Comet are usually non-elemental.

And if the fix is purely cosmetic, why does it matter if we get Comet? Why wouldn't any other spell fit, like the Burst spell that keeps being called for?