Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Fyce]

It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

Ever since "differences in playstyle" appeared as a valid reason for kicking, these four options that never got updated were pretty much irrelevant.
By the way, these options are different in other languages, showing how useless this selection of options is.

[OcieKo]

Reason is not subjective.




Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

2nd Part, I'm with you.

1st part is objectively wrong, by it's very nature reason is subjective, even more-so is the term reasonable. Even if we get a baseline "reasonable" play from the developers for this purpose, that baseline reasonable was subjective to the collective views of the developers that they would be willing to enforce. While objectively usable as a standard to work from, the view itself is subjective.
Keep in mind the western basis for logic and reason was at one point subjectively legitimately considered crazy and madness by the majority of the populace.

[cicatriz313]

Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most)..

Reasonable is subjective, it's inherently subjective because it's based on someone's own judgment. Like come on lol. Also of course it'll differ depending on job makeup and such, but grouping things up and hitting for thousands of potency each global is inherently better than the alternative. MOST dungeons don't have monsters big enough to make aoe not viable, in fact I would say even the ones that do you're STILL hitting enough mobs to make it better. Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation. I didn't say it was objectively better in every situation, I said most situations, funny you'd resort to a strawman after complaining about it. Like there are entire guides on when aoe is better and why on the balance discord and most of the time it's like 4+ for globals. Anything higher than that is just added bonus. And the whole "2-5 minutes at most" is debatable for sure, but also 2-5 minutes in every single duty you do while playing this game adds up and is therefore significant.

[Renato]

I also play main tank. DRK to be exact.

I used to be afraid of pulling large at lower levels (50 and below) because you lack some skills that would make large pulls a lot harder than what they should be. To be completely honest at Lv70, you should be pulling large. You have all the skills needed at a tank to hold aggro and mitigate damage as well as self heal. The healer can pretty much completely replenish your HP if need be as long as you're not standing in AoE pools and DPS roles will burn through groups of enemies like it's nothing. It's daunting at first but it's really not that difficult.

Sometimes I do pull smaller depending on the dungeon and the mobs though. Like during the Burn in the final room before the Mist Dragon with the Giga Worms. Only because there's constant AoEs being thrown out that makes postitioning really annoying if you pull them, the bugs that come from the sand and that flying creatures, it becomes an annoying AoE fest.

[Kaedan]

Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation.

I don't think you're understanding. The healer is required to spend more GCDs on healing during a mass pull than they are for single pulls. That's how the mechanics work... the tank is taking significantly more damage in a mass pull than single pull, so more GCDs are used for healing. In single group pull, the healer can spend more GCDs on dps. This isn't about whether or not a healer is "comfortable"... it's simply math and mechanics. The only exception might be if the tank is DRK if they are very experienced and use the proper rotation.

[cicatriz313]

I don't think you're understanding. The healer is required to spend more GCDs on healing during a mass pull than they are for single pulls. That's how the mechanics work... the tank is taking significantly more damage in a mass pull than single pull, so more GCDs are used for healing. In single group pull, the healer can spend more GCDs on dps. This isn't about whether or not a healer is "comfortable"... it's simply math and mechanics. The only exception might be if the tank is DRK if they are very experienced and use the proper rotation.

I'm understanding perfectly, but what you're saying isn't true. Yes they're taking more damage, but at the same time because they can use their aoe spells to do that much more damage in a larger pack, the one gcd they used on doing damage is doing THAT MUCH MORE compared to the gcds the spent on the single pulls. Then you throw in how healing in this game is atrociously easy when it comes to healing damage, that argument isn't really solid because if they are doing single pulls most healers are just doing their simple stone stone stone rotation. Every healer has spells that benefit much more when done on large packs vs smaller ones. What you're saying makes sense logically, they're taking more damage and therefore need more healer gcds, but you're discounting that they're doing more damage each spell and things are dying faster over the course of the dungeon, aoe spells can stun and heal others, etc. You're making it too simplistic for your arguments benefit.

[Kaedan]

I'm understanding perfectly, but what you're saying isn't true. Yes they're taking more damage, but at the same time because they can use their aoe spells to do that much more damage in a larger pack, the one gcd they used on doing damage is doing THAT MUCH MORE compared to the gcds the spent on the single pulls. Then you throw in how healing in this game is atrociously easy when it comes to healing damage, that argument isn't really solid because if they are doing single pulls most healers are just doing their simple stone stone stone rotation. Every healer has spells that benefit much more when done on large packs vs smaller ones. What you're saying makes sense logically, they're taking more damage and therefore need more healer gcds, but you're discounting that they're doing more damage each spell and things are dying faster over the course of the dungeon, aoe spells can stun and heal others, etc. You're making it too simplistic for your arguments benefit.

Umm... a healer is using their AoE on single group pulls.

I think you're confusing single group pulling with single target killing... which is not what I'm talking about (and thus you are not understanding).

[cicatriz313]

Umm... a healer is using their AoE on single group pulls.

Umm... that depends on the healer greatly, like you're saying people are holy spamming or gravity spamming 2-3 mobs? And even if they are, which you know, probably not great, but even if they are they're still doing far more potency in large groups.

Again, not confused, you're just not making good arguments. edit: In my opinion. Also, this is getting off-topic and being steered a certain way for you to get a point in. Overall between healer, tank and dps, it's way more dps to do large pulls in most cases. And that's why it's not unreasonable for this particular group to have booted this particular tank for refusing to pull more despite them encouraging him to do so. Since at that point it was simply the tanks decision not to, I think they were in the right to do what they did.

[Gemina]

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it.

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

[Cerbolt]

And this is why I and many others don't tank.