Why Does A Fierce Race Of Female Warriors...

[Joven]

People can wear pretty much what they want in the west.
People can design their female characters how they like.
People are allowed to be offended and comment on things.
And the devs can (and do) do what they like.

1. Until someone decides it's "problematic"
2. See #1
3. True, but just because someone is offended by something doesn't automatically make that something wrong.
4. False. If this thread and the ones that are demanding male Viera are any indication then the devs most certainly can not do what they like because if they could then none of us would be having these discussions.

[Gemina]

1. Until someone decides it's "problematic"
2. See #1
3. True, but just because someone is offended by something doesn't automatically make that something wrong.
4. False. If this thread and the ones that are demanding male Viera are any indication then the devs most certainly can not do what they like because if they could then none of us would be having these discussions.

1. It's a bit more complicated than that. You can wear whatever you want in the west within the confines of the law. For example, I could dress in full armor and walk down the street, but I cannot have a giant blade strapped to my back. However, if an individual finds just the armor problematic, there really isn't a whole lot they can do about it. We're not communists. Property owners and businesses can deem what is appropriate, and do have rights to expel those who do not meet that criteria within their property lines. It's pretty similar in FFXIV, and what the devs will not allow isn't even implemented in the game in the first place, or there are restrictions in place.

2. See #1

3. Your #1 and #3 contradict each other

4. What on Earth does that have to do with anything? The devs can most certainly add male Viera if they wanted to. They chose not to in order to bring Hrothgar into the game. Examples of what the devs cannot do is show an excessive amount of gore, rape, pornography, infringe on copyrights, or allow players to name their characters certain names such as Cloud Strife. So while what Jandor stated is indeed false, it has nothing to do with decisions based around exclusion of gender with new races. Take this agenda to one of the many threads that pertain to that topic.

[Joven]

1. It's a bit more complicated than that. You can wear whatever you want in the west within the confines of the law. For example, I could dress in full armor and walk down the street, but I cannot have a giant blade strapped to my back. However, if an individual finds just the armor problematic, there really isn't a whole lot they can do about it. We're not communists. Property owners and businesses can deem what is appropriate, and do have rights to expel those who do not meet that criteria within their property lines. It's pretty similar in FFXIV, and what the devs will not allow isn't even implemented in the game in the first place, or there are restrictions in place.

2. See #1

3. Your #1 and #3 contradict each other

4. What on Earth does that have to do with anything? The devs can most certainly add male Viera if they wanted to. They chose not to in order to bring Hrothgar into the game. Examples of what the devs cannot do is show an excessive amount of gore, rape, pornography, infringe on copyrights, or allow players to name their characters certain names such as Cloud Strife.

1. You carry a sword, you don't wear it just like you carry a firearm. Just because it's on your body doesn't mean it's considered clothing. We aren't talking about private businesses when it comes to what the general public wears, that's an entirely different scenario. If someone finds something another person wears as "problematic" and can convence the right people of why they think it is such then something will be done about it. How do you think laws about what can and can't be worn were made? Someone decided they didn't like something. That's what I mean by "until someone finds it "problematic"".

2. Devs are bound to public opinion. Sure they can design a character however they want, initially, but if the public doesn't approve then they're forced to change it or not make sales. Similar to #1 if one person has a problem with it and can convince others then things will be changed.

3. No, they complement each other. You are allowed to be offened by something, but again, your offense doesn't make that something wrong i.e. demand it be changed.

4. I was refering to the backlash towards the fact that they didn't offer male Viera as a way to highlight that they're not allowed to do what they want. If they could do what they wanted then they could simply say something like "you're not getting male Viera, deal with it." , but they can't because of the negative impact it would have on their sales. Just like with #2. Even you admit that they can't do whatever they want with "Examples of what the devs cannot do is show an excessive amount of gore, rape, pornography, infringe on copyrights, or allow players to name their characters certain names such as Cloud Strife." If they could do what they wanted then none of those would be an issue.

[Gemina]

1. You carry a sword, you don't wear it just like you carry a firearm. Just because it's on your body doesn't mean it's considered clothing. We aren't talking about private businesses when it comes to what the general public wears, that's an entirely different scenario. If someone finds something another person wears as "problematic" and can convence the right people of why they think it is such then something will be done about it. How do you think laws about what can and can't be worn were made? Someone decided they didn't like something. That's what I mean by "until someone finds it "problematic"".

Ok, fair enough. Then define "problematic". I can dress like a smurf if I wanted to. Someone who has a problem with this while I'm out in public is also within their right to express their discontent with it, but there isn't anything anyone can do about it because there are no laws against it. Unless I enter someone else's property. That is why I brought it up. So if we can't dress how we want, please provide a specific example of how we can't, instead of just saying, "you can't". As people of the western civilization, we are bound by laws and regulations, and those are the only prohibitors I can think of when it comes to what we can and cannot wear. For the most part though, we can wear whatever we want; or rather I should say, I don't have to change my attire because someone simply has a problem with it.

2. Devs are bound to public opinion. Sure they can design a character however they want, initially, but if the public doesn't approve then they're forced to change it or not make sales. Similar to #1 if one person has a problem with it and can convince others then things will be changed.

No, they are not. It is in their best interest to appease the majority of their subscribers, but they cannot make everyone happy. In fact, and as most of us know, they have to outright ignore public opinions; otherwise they would never get anything done. Male Viera, a fourth healer, glamour restrictions lifted, more inventory; all examples of public desire and opinion. We the public are not entitled to anything other than what the devs are truly bound by when it comes to the ToS. They have to provide a game for us to play in exchange for our subscription fee. We however are bound to play the game according to the ToS. We can express our opinions and desires, and based on public majority, the devs may listen. That is how we got things like BLU and the Viera. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying public opinion does not matter, but the devs being bound it; nope, not at all.

3. No, they complement each other. You are allowed to be offened by something, but again, your offense doesn't make that something wrong i.e. demand it be changed.

The reason why I say this is contradictory is because it is in agreeance with what I have stated in my number 1 clause. Therefore it contradicts 'problematic', but I might be misunderstanding what it is you're trying to say.

4. I was refering to the backlash towards the fact that they didn't offer male Viera as a way to highlight that they're not allowed to do what they want. If they could do what they wanted then they could simply say something like "you're not getting male Viera, deal with it." , but they can't because of the negative impact it would have on their sales.

They received the negative impact regardless. Their own subscribers calling them sexist, and threatening to unsubscribe. What would you call that? They didn't say things in the words of, "You're not getting male Viera, deal with it" because they have a degree of professionalism that must needs be maintained. Doing and saying what you want are two different things. We are the ones to blame for creating promises they've never made. Male Viera, DNC as a healer; they've made no such confirmations at any point and we just assumed we were getting them based off of... reasons. We chastised them anyway as if they did. Fact remains that FFXIV is their game that we play. What they decide, we accept, or we move on.

[Joven]

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Problematic is pretty self explanatory: it's something that someone finds as a problem i.e. a roach infestation is problematic. I can't walk down the street wearing nothing but a towel and a smile. Why? Because enough people got together and decided that something like that was "indecent" so they made it illegal. If enough people find you walking around dressed as a smurf to be inappropriate they'll do something about it. As for private businesses and residents: they are owned by an individual so that individual gets to decide what the dress code is based on what they consider appropriate. Places like grocery stores, hospitals, schools, etc are considered "public spaces" which means they're akin to being outside even though they are privately owned businesses. They still have a "dress code", but they try to keep it to something simple like "shirt and shoes required" so as to not encroach on our ability to wear pretty much whatever. They're still free to change it to suit the situation, like how you can't wear shorts in a courthouse because even though it's considered a public space they want to portray at least some semblance of professionalism. I'll give an example of someone finding something someone else was wearing in a public space to be a problem and forcing them to change it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8plCd0c7gV0. (NSFW language). I know the video is fairly old, but it still applies.

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Both of these prove my point. The fact that they received so much of a negative reaction to the lack of male Viera, despite the fact that they even offered Viera to begin with due to requests, is indicative of how little control they really have over what they release if the public doesn't approve. If the devs could do whatever they wanted then they wouldn't really care about appeasing the majority and just release whatever they felt like whenever they felt like it and to the 7 Hells with the complaints. That's what I meant with the statement "you're not getting male Viera, deal with it". They would never say that, but even if they had no intention of releasing male Viera in the future they'd have no choice now but to release them because of the public outrage. They have to weigh their options about what they add too. Glamour restrictions lifted, more inventory and a fourth healer may be what a majority of people want, but if they were to focus on fulfilling those objectives then another majority of people would complain about them taking time and resources away from creating raids and adding more areas. It's a no win situation.

[Jaywalker]

Devs are bound to public opinion. Sure they can design a character however they want, initially, but if the public doesn't approve then they're forced to change it or not make sales. Similar to #1 if one person has a problem with it and can convince others then things will be changed.

I 100% understand what you're worried about, but I also think you're several leaps beyond what is actually going on with the devs and fans for FFXIV.

Fans being unhappy with a creative choice and talking about it is very normal. Fans making decisions about what they will or will not engage with, either with their dollar or with gameplay, is also normal. That's our right as consumers. There are a lot of fans and ultimately, part of the job for devs is to navigate between overall customer desire, craftsmanship, monetary/time constraints, and their own creative vision. Good judgment, expertise, and confidence are essential in this role. SE can manage well enough in this respect.

Without naming names, there is an industry where policy involves ignoring most fan demand to the tune of SIGNIFICANT monetary loss. They are instead catering to some very vocal and unhappy individuals who don't spend money when they get their way. The professionals do not conduct themselves well, have removed and destroyed work according to mob whims, and even blacklist talent due to the situation. It takes a lot of ineptitude, cowardice, and bad priorities to reach that point. Further, the mob itself is prone to things like making petitions, trying to organize boycotts, making personal accusations, etc. None of these things need to be given power by the industry since they don't reflect most customers, but some very poor judgment is at work.

Censorship is not subtle. Fellow fans under those circumstances are not persuaded by good arguments but by fear and rhetoric, as are the pros.

If the choices in this situation were made due to simple persuasion and SE decided that either creatively or in pleasing a larger customer base they should adjust tactics, that's healthy. It's also well within their rights. This is a regular discussion. Fortunately for all of us, we can make cases where people actually absorb and think about what's being said instead of pulling kneejerk reactions. If the luxury of being judged by the merit of your argument is here then it's on you to make a better, more persuasive argument.

When you tell other people they shouldn't be allowed to criticize or complain because what if the devs listen, you're enacting that very censorious behavior you're worried about. Your opinion isn't inherently more valuable than OP's or people of similar mind to OP. It's a slippery slope best avoided.

[Joven]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't voice your opinions, or saying they're not allowed to critisize, you absolutly should, but when you start refering something released as a "problem" when it isn't just because you personally find it distasteful that's where the issue lies. You start to encroach on the devs creative freedom. What I'm trying to do is point out that certain thought processes are harmful to the outcome of the content released. I've never said "you can't dislike that" only that you can't say it's a problem when it's not just because you dislike it.

My opinion isn't more important than others, but their opinions aren't more important than the dev's wishes for their game. Some of the male Viera threads are a good example of people trying to use their opinions to essentially force the devs to release male Vieras by calling them "regressive", "sexist" and "homophobic" and saying that not having the males present is a problem. You get enough of those and the devs will think that's how the majority feels and even if their end decision was to not implement the male they'll feel like they had to because of the pressure. Your Unnamed Industry has fallen into this trap where they think the loud minority speaks for everyone and now they're paying the consequences. I don't want the same thing to start happening here.

[Jaywalker]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't voice your opinions, or saying they're not allowed to critisize, you absolutly should, but when you start refering something released as a "problem" when it isn't just because you personally find it distasteful that's where the issue lies.

Idk man, I don't think it's right to do the same language policing thing where certain words become off-limits due to fear. I think you're right to say it's misleading to call something a "problem" as if it's objective fact. It's not, it's the OP's opinion and that difference is important. But if they want to use it they've got that right, just like you've got the right to point it out and disagree.

My opinion isn't more important than others, but their opinions aren't more important than the dev's wishes for their game.

I think that's a bit debatable. This is a business and a franchise. It's not one person's passion project existing in the vacuum of their head. A lot of the problems I described in my unnamed industry are because there is zero sense of professional responsibility, craftsmanship, or respect for most customers. People are literally destroying entire brands for selfish reasons. The attitude there is that storytelling (visually, verbally, etc.) is worth as much as the creator's feelings, that the creator's feelings and self-expression are the ultimate good, and no one has a right to criticize. That entitlement is a massive problem, just as fan entitlement and harassment is a massive problem. It's important to recognize that both positions (critic and creator) have some merit, but taken to extremes can cause huge issues.

The dev's wishes for the game are important. If the dev's wishes for the game come at the expense of the customers more than they bring enjoyment, the inevitable consequences of that are more people leaving than entering the playerbase. It's a balancing act, you know?

Some of the male Viera threads are a good example of people trying to use their opinions to essentially force the devs to release male Vieras by calling them "regressive", "sexist" and "homophobic" and saying that not having the males present is a problem. You get enough of those and the devs will think that's how the majority feels and even if their end decision was to not impliment the male they'll feel like they had to because of the pressure.

I agree that behavior is wrong. If this was a Western property, accusations like that could be career-ending. Fortunately, people in this fandom seem to still have a degree of skepticism instead of taking it as a given that accusation = guilt. Further, Japan has some protection by virtue of not depending on Western values/opinions. Since people casually making accusations of bigotry don't have power with respect to FFXIV, the important thing from there is that the devs have the mental and creative fortitude to simply reject those accusations as ridiculous/unfounded and keep trucking. It also seems to be pretty commonly understood that forums ≠ the entire player base, and the international player base differs a great deal from the American or just overall English-speaking player base.

This is that confidence thing I mentioned. Part of the responsibility involved in being a good creator comes from being able to understand there will always be critics, even those who are hateful and want to destroy what you've made. Mature creators need to be able to take a deep breath and decide independently what criticism has merit, what doesn't, and keep going according to what seems appropriate. Not just trying to appease the loudest voices.

No fan has the right to tell SE how to evaluate criticism. They have to use their own good judgment. Assume they see the arguments and counter-arguments, then simply make a good case.

Like I said before, I have no problem with the female Viera's default clothing. It's even kind of reassuring to me because that sort of thing is so demonized elsewhere. I don't necessarily think OP's criticism is fair under the circumstances, so I raised that point. I'd also like male Viera included, but I don't think it's right for people to launch accusations at devs for not getting what they want when they want it. I happen to agree with you that using fear tactics and censorship is a major problem, and it's the LAST thing I want in FFXIV. That said I don't think OP was terrible, out of line, or threatening in expressing their opinion on the subject.

[Joven]

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I agree that it is a fine line between calling out someone for using terms that have the potential to give the wrong impression about something and trying to deny them the option to disagree about that something. I struggle to express myself in a way that doesn't come off as trying to tell others what they should/n't be doing and sometimes I succeed and others, like this thread, not so much. That's kind of one of the reasons I participate in discussions like this, to try and better my ability to debate and express my thoughts.

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Just because this is a business doesn't mean the devs can't have a passion for the world they've created. It's not just one person's passion, it's a whole team's passion and it's shown in the little details of the environments, the character animations and emotes, the music, etc and it's proven that they have a passion and respect for the fans by the content released. Most of which comes from fan requests. I know that this is a business and that money is a motivating factor, but I honestly think that this game is almost wholly a passion project because if it was purely profit driven they would have scrapped the whole concept after the failure of 1.0 for being unprofitable.

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I agree that it is a balancing act of giving fans what they want and holding to your vision, but sometimes you just have to say "we feel like that addition doesn't work for what we're intending". I'll use the Viera/Hrothgar situation as an example again since it's the most recent controversy: I feel that if the devs had an in-world related reason as to why those races only have one gender and they felt that fan requests for the other genders went against that reason and would disrupt future plans then they should be able to reject the request without facing severe backlash. That's where we as fans need to understand that we shouldn't expect to get everything we want even though we pay a subscription. We're paying to participate in the story the developers are telling, not paying to control it.

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Japan and SE aren't going to be shielded from Western values/opinions forever since they participate in a global market and marketing shapes cultures.

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I don't think the OP was any of those things either but their line of "I thought you were better than that SE" is in the same vein of "I think this is a problem and you should change it". It's not threatening or out of line, but it still insinuates they wish to change something due to personal taste.