The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

[Derio]

They must be more severe. Too many dps are getting off the hook.

[LineageRazor]

As a counterpoint, fights can be built to be challenging without involving Enrage timers. Just look to FFXI, the MMO predecessor to this one. There were PLENTY of challenging fights in that game, and only a bare handful had Enrages (and those few cases, to prevent folks from "zombieing" open-world mobs until folks literally started having real-life health issues).

I've never been fond of Enrage as a component to difficulty. It's a relatively recent addition to video games in general, and games were fun before this started to happen. If you can take what the boss throws at you, that should be enough.

[Nestama]

If you can take what the boss throws at you, that should be enough.

But then that kinda removes responsibility for the DPS and then makes it purely on the tanks and healers to make sure nothing goes wrong. Its been used as an example before, but I think the last thing people want is a Construct 7 situation.

[Ruru_Nayu]

Great idea, let's give out raid gear for free aswell because it won't take any skill to clear anything anymore, deaths? Don't matter anymore! Free gear yay!
Honestly, no. Content is already easy enough.

[Bright-Flower]

They would need some sort of dps check. Otherwise people could just stack extra healers to trivialize things, beat bosses by attrition.

Maybe they could get rid of them and focus more on on mid fight dps checks, but I worry that may favor burst damage too much depending on how it's handled. A lot of fights have the 'mid fight kill adds before bar fills' dps check, but I don't think just having one of these is enough.

The issues with tanks/healers is more how those aspects of the game are designed. Assuming people aren't taking unavoidable damage, healers are free to spend a lot of time dps. Tanks only really need to worry about being proactively defensive when a tankbuster is coming up. So both of these roles have the room to contribute significant dps when things are going well.

If you remove enrage timers, you need something to replace them so that bosses don't become battles of attrition where you're stacked with healers to whether all the damage and throw out reses.

Maybe something like a stacking soft enrage system. You don't strictly have to beat the boss in 10 minutes, but if you don't, the boss starts doing more damage, and the longer it takes to kill the boss, the harder and harder he starts to hit. This could leave some leeway but you still can't just stack healers or else theoretically the soft enrage would grow to levels that can't be healed through. Maybe that would work maybe not, but you need SOMETHIGN to replace it.

[Alaray]

I think we need to give the bosses chance to do direct crit auto attacks, that will kill a tank if they're not at 100% health. (so if their HP is 60'000 for example, it would do 59'999 damage, killing them even at full health if not in tank stance), and reduce enmity gains in DPS stance by 99% (perhaps make it so every attack they do in DPS stance reduces enmity). Make enmity actually have to be managed and you'll be able to reduce time in DPS stance. Enmity is literally given to tanks on a silver platter (even in DPS stance!), which is why most spend so long in DPS stance. Same for healers, our heals are so stupidly powerful that we're able to spend more time DPSing. I think I remember someone doing a Xelphatol run where their Regen and oGCD heals were enough to keep people alive, meaning they did something like 99% casts being damage spells. That would also need changing. Stop giving heals and enmity on a silver platter, and then we can spend more time healing.

So, basically, remove any ounce of difficulty from a role to make it pretty much have 0 responsibility to the team aside from just sitting in a stance the entire time, while adding absolutely nothing that's interactive and interesting from a job-mechanics perspective.

At least being in Deliverance/Out of Grit/in Sword Oath makes you need to look at threat and use your cooldown economy with some prior thought put into it. And work with the other tank to use CD's to the make the most efficient use out of 2 tanks CD economy. And utilizing provoke and shirk to buff enmity at times where it can be used (or to do a swap so the other tank can blow all their cd's on a second buster, and then the random 3rd one is just immuned, which leads into the least amount of damage intake by the tanks, which means less healing, which means healers + tanks can use their damage to actually try and create a comfier barrier from enrage if DPS are struggling).

Just doing this would basically make the role essentially... braindead. And force a player to not utilize a good chunk of their class's kit because it ends up being counter intuitive if they go into a burst phase on a boss and just die cuz lul auto.

It'll be.. so much FuN to just... Butchers Block and... sit in Defiance and... do... nothing else. Real gripping gameplay. And the grit+ Dark Arts Power Slash gameplay, oh man, real interesting stuff.

It's like... lemme just... do 0 damage to the dragon in 010s, and camp it in a corner in Defiance, because if I go to kill a nail during the DPS check I could get crit for 70k and die from an auto attack (or just not have the tools to kill it in time b/c gotta do IB's over FC's). Real. Real fun idea. I can't wait.


It's still a dumb idea to punish an entire role for players who underperform in it. Or punish a role because, for whatever reason, people don't like to push buttons like Shadewalker, Smoke Screen, Diversion, Lucid Dreaming, Tactician, or other tanks not wanting to voke+shirk etc...

Dunno, but it's a lot more satisfying to me to use CD usage, particularly on DRK, and take 0 damage from a tank buster despite being out of tank stance while still trying to do what damage output I can to, again, try and kill the boss faster. Rather than being forced to camp a stance and be no different from a NPC bot doing the same.

And I mean, I guess that idea would help keep some boss fights 20+ minutes long without an enrage involved. Or if there was a softer enrage, like damage up stacks, well those auto's will just kill you anyway.

[Enla]

But then that kinda removes responsibility for the DPS and then makes it purely on the tanks and healers to make sure nothing goes wrong. Its been used as an example before, but I think the last thing people want is a Construct 7 situation.

Which ironically is still an issue even almost a full year after that raid was released. When enough people mess up or decided to do poorly and not care, that entire fight becomes a literal war of attrition that puts far too much stress on the tanks and especially the healers. I think like you said, a lot of people just don't realize that in some of these fights a lack of enrage timer isn't necessarily a boon. It just foists the stress off on other people. Which as a healer who /has/ been in a twenty minute long Construct 7 fight and a few others makes me a tad annoyed. Because often it isn't the case of the party 'taking what the boss throws at them' but more half the party constantly taking mechanics to the face and giving ulcers to everyone else.

[SenorPatty]

Which ironically is still an issue even almost a full year after that raid was released. When enough people mess up or decided to do poorly and not care, that entire fight becomes a literal war of attrition that puts far too much stress on the tanks and especially the healers. I think like you said, a lot of people just don't realize that in some of these fights a lack of enrage timer isn't necessarily a boon. It just foists the stress off on other people. Which as a healer who /has/ been in a twenty minute long Construct 7 fight and a few others makes me a tad annoyed. Because often it isn't the case of the party 'taking what the boss throws at them' but more half the party constantly taking mechanics to the face and giving ulcers to everyone else.

Don't forget the part where after the fight ends, someone says "good job guys". I recoil so hard when I see that line and my internal screaming clock instantly seems to be all hours at once.

[Paladinleeds]

snip

That's only going to be part of it. I want enmity and defensive cooldowns to be more important to fights (active mitigation like Warrior's Inner Beast, removal of oGCD heals, etc). In this game, everything is just a glorified DPS. Want a more heal focused or tank focused role? Better play another game, because in this game everything is a DPS just with "tanks" having a bit beefier defensive stats, and "healers" being able to heal. The memes about blue and green DPS haven't come from nowhere. That's what I want, is it to be less about how much damage tanks and healers can push out, and more about tanking and healing.

There'd still be a time and a place for pushing out damage as a tank (during say DPS checks where no tanking or healing is involved), and the very best could still manage it outside of those phases, but I want the focus to shift on that. I like healing, but in this game, I feel like a DPS with a few healing spells at my disposal. Because tanking and healing is so braindead easy for their primary role that if you're not spending 99.9% of your time in tank stance, you're doing garbage. And the devs continue to buff tank enmity and healing potencies, instead of making tanking and healing more difficult in their primary roles.

Notice how the enmity thing I suggested would make swapping to DPS stance much more strategic, instead of just "Grab aggro, go Deliverance, ham out as much damage as possible". Now there's enmity to worry about. Tanks and healers are having their primary roles made easier and easier (while DPS combos still remain kinda challenging by comparison), all to try and woo people who want to see big numbers, but you won't be able to do that unless you make the numbers high enough that DPS become redundant. So make their primary roles more difficult instead.

[Zumi]

Without a dps check you can take a bunch of tanks and healers and not even need to bring a dps.