SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

[Kazrah]

There are numerous ways to implement BLU into XIV while keeping its identity intact, which have been proposed by numerous people across numerous threads.

You mean like this thread? If anything, the fact that 1) there are so many ways that it can be implemented, 2) everyone seems to have their own idea of how Blue Mage should work in XIV and 3) most of those ideas (including the one that I linked) won't work in this level of the game show how little we--the players--know of the game.

However, in making a Blue Mage concept back during Heavensward and then seeing the job in the game now, the only real takeaway seems to be that those who clamored for the job like it was in XI honestly got what they wished for: a job where you could go out and learn spells just like they could in XI, which resulted in a job appearing to be just as impractical as any other concept pulled right out of one game and slapped into another seemingly without any realistic adjustments that would make it suitable for all aspects of the game. Such adjustments would include an alternate resource system (a "job gauge"), changing or removing of all spells that work around percentage of health or have status effects other than stun or sleep that boss-type enemies would be immune to, and creating a somewhat-forced rotation that would mean removing the need to hunt specific mobs for spells and forcing the learning of spells into level growth and questlines. Yes, a "gating" system could be done where a Blue Mage couldn't enter certain dungeons, raids or trials because they don't have a specific spell or spell set except 1) this system screws over players with worse luck, 2) devs would have to painstakingly set those requirements for each and every single bit of instanced content and 3) players would of course whine and complain about specific requirement settings; all of this leads to far too much micromanagement work required of devs that could be busy doing a multitude of other things. In short, making Blue Mage a regular job requires eliminating everything from Blue Mage that regular jobs neither have nor do.

That being said, I'm still not convinced we have enough information on Limited Jobs to really know if they're a bad thing or not. All we have is Blue Mage, one of the most highly demanded jobs for years left prone to some really bad explanations from devs as to why it is what it is in XIV. There is potential for it as a way of offering more appeal for open-world content, and maybe Blue Mage would be more popular if it didn't require going into dungeons or trials and truly was a solo gameplay experience. Either way, I'd still withhold my judgment on Limited Jobs until another one comes out and HOPEFULLY it will have a far better excuse stated as to why such a job is declared Limited.

[Kalise]

Such adjustments would include an alternate resource system (a "job gauge")

Which is easily done.

Just like it has been done with literally every other job in the game that gets a job gauge (Usually after level 50, if not sooner)

changing or removing of all spells that work around percentage of health or have status effects other than stun or sleep that boss-type enemies would be immune to

Which again, wouldn't be much of a problem to do.

Bonus points: You can also tie these skills interactions to the shiny new job gauge you create!

For example, make job gauge be about putting "Elemental Status" on enemies. So instead of skills like The Dragon's Voice and Drill Cannons relying on status effects like Deep Freeze and Petrify (Which don't work on bosses and are on DR for trash) you can simply use your job gauge to aspect your enemies to Ice or Stone respectively.

The end result is 1) You've created the job gauge that you needed to. 2) You dealt with these skills that rely on CC effects to function. 3) You've created the "Elements Matter" effect that many XI BLU fans liked.

creating a somewhat-forced rotation that would mean removing the need to hunt specific mobs for spells and forcing the learning of spells into level growth and questlines.

Creating a forced rotation...

You mean like already exists? (Only currently, half of the skills you need from it are from the Primals )

With a lot of other useful skills being outright given to you through job quests and Whalaqee Totems?

Yes, a "gating" system could be done where a Blue Mage couldn't enter certain dungeons, raids or trials because they don't have a specific spell or spell set except 1) this system screws over players with worse luck

Unless you made the "Gating" skills not be luck dependent.

2) devs would have to painstakingly set those requirements for each and every single bit of instanced content

It honestly wouldn't be that bad. There are in fact some rather easy ways in order to circumvent this.

For example in a "Forced Skill Setup" situation for duties... Level lock the ability slots and then ability type lock each of the ability slots (I.e. Skill 1 is filler nuke, skill 2 is debuff a la Off-Guard, skill 3 is combo set up skill a la Ram's Voice, skill 4 is combo finisher skill a la Dragon's Voice)

Then you simply design around max level content (As well as using the leveling systems from other jobs to determine what levels new skills should be available) and then the game will auto-sync your kit down where appropriate.

3) players would of course whine and complain about specific requirement settings

...Unless you don't put the "Requirements" behind RNG and instead make them easy to get?

Then put in a failsafe so that during sync'd and level appropriate duties that someone can't equip a stupid skillset that is lacking any reasonable skills?

Details of such a system have been discussed in a prior thread

In short, making Blue Mage a regular job requires eliminating everything from Blue Mage that regular jobs neither have nor do.

No, in short it is "I cannot think about how to design a Blue Mage that works as a regular job, therefore, it can not be done"

The fact that current BLU is actually relatively decently balanced as it currently is at level 50 with its full set of skills, is testament to how it is on the right tracks of being a normal job.

With skills that are part of the core rotation being: Requested by the Job Quests (Glower), given to you via Whalaqee Totem (Off-Guard) or easy to obtain (Bristle and Peculiar Light)

With only Song of Torment and the 3 Primal skills you need (Eruption, Shock Strike and Glass Dance) being RNG gated behind non-soloable content (Though, it's not as if these would be impossible to put elsewhere within easier reach of BLU's just like they added all those new enemies to specifically teach BLU's various skills like 1000 Needles and Peculiar Light. For example, the final boss in Masked Carnivale uses all the Primal skills... Make them 100% learn chance from him and you've got yourself those 3 skills 100% unlocked by people who do the level 50 job quest)

[Shougun]

You mean like this thread? If anything, the fact that 1) there are so many ways that it can be implemented, 2) everyone seems to have their own idea of how Blue Mage should work in XIV and 3) most of those ideas (including the one that I linked) won't work in this level of the game show how little we--the players--know of the game.

To be fair I imagine Kalise was specifically referencing ideas made after the introduction of Blue Mage into the game (which have a higher detail of the FFXIV's mindset since most are based off the recent introduction, making them more FFXIV compatible). So of course your linked idea is quite different than everything suggested recently. Most of the ones post-limited blue agree on core principles even if they go off into their own nuances (like I don't see many that destroy the carnival).

Also I feel like every issue you made could be solved. For example: "It's too random I can't get into dungeons easily". . How about make it more reliable then? Black Mage in some FF games have a huge compendium of spells, that doesn't make FFXIV's black mage not black mage. Blue Mage has a huge list of spells in games that give other jobs huge lists of spells, having a big list isn't "blue mage". Also setting your skills up like a loadout is only blue mage in FFXI, it's only a recent quirk of blue mage and is not "blue mage" at it's core.

The only thing at blue mage's core is learning monster skills. Although many ideas leave blue mage with big lists of abilities still, with some nuance on how that is balanced in DF (some have matching types, others forgo "building a set" in DF and do other things with abilities in limited content).

[ReiMakoto]

With only Song of Torment and the 3 Primal skills you need (Eruption, Shock Strike and Glass Dance) being RNG gated behind non-soloable content (Though, it's not as if these would be impossible to put elsewhere within easier reach of BLU's just like they added all those new enemies to specifically teach BLU's various skills like 1000 Needles and Peculiar Light. For example, the final boss in Masked Carnivale uses all the Primal skills... Make them 100% learn chance from him and you've got yourself those 3 skills 100% unlocked by people who do the level 50 job quest)

You know I thought they were going to do this with azulmagia. The cutscene where they introduce him he uses a bunch of primal skills, so I thought it was going to be the case of, you fight azulmagia in a tough fight to get all the primall skills off of him (like how in FFV you could learn a bunch of BLU magic off of azulmagia), or you could choose to do the primals for an easier time learning them. But then in the actual fight he doesn't do any of them :/ .

[Physic]

You dont really get what i am trying to say here.




No its not impossible for blue mage to be in content while breaking most of the rules of FFXIV, or having different skills in different settings, Its that The developers of FFXIV do not want to mix in these ideas, or complex implementations into their streamlined FFXIV design process for jobs.


They fundamentally want all jobs to be very similar in skill aquisition and availability.
They dont want to lock players out based on what skills they have available.
they dont want hybrids in the overall battle system.
They dont want to have different rule sets for abilities in duty finder vs outside of duty finder


How do i know this? because much of these things existed before in FFXIV, and they have gone out of their way to strip them from FFXIV, and strealine the overall design processes. They specifically gutted these things from the game already, or chose not to add/develop around these limitations.


They used to have cross job abilities, and people who leveled other jobs had better dps/tank/healing abilities, instead of adding a check, they made the role system.


They used to have cross job skills, which gave more hybrid abilities, they took them away.


The cross jobs were not meant to be used in highlevel content, mostly used for open world, small groups, fun, etc. They still removed them from the game.


And even that very small bit of extra balancing some combos caused was seen as too much, and not worth maintaining.






Short version, its not that its impossible to make blue mage fit, its that the paradigm of what they want jobs to be for 4=8 man content does not fit what blue mage is. They dont want to do any of the things you suggested. If they decide blue mage must fit into regular parties, they will make it as streamlined and uniform as every other job, because thats what they expect from anything going into regular content.



Also note, blue mage cannot be what it is outside of groups and something else in groups, they are not going to maintain two different versions of blue mage, because they probably dont want to. Not because its impossible, but because they dont feel its a worthwhile endeavor.

[Physic]

To be fair I imagine Kalise was specifically referencing ideas made after the introduction of Blue Mage into the game (which have a higher detail of the FFXIV's mindset since most are based off the recent introduction, making them more FFXIV compatible). So of course your linked idea is quite different than everything suggested recently. Most of the ones post-limited blue agree on core principles even if they go off into their own nuances (like I don't see many that destroy the carnival).

Also I feel like every issue you made could be solved. For example: "It's too random I can't get into dungeons easily". . How about make it more reliable then? Black Mage in some FF games have a huge compendium of spells, that doesn't make FFXIV's black mage not black mage. Blue Mage has a huge list of spells in games that give other jobs huge lists of spells, having a big list isn't "blue mage". Also setting your skills up like a loadout is only blue mage in FFXI, it's only a recent quirk of blue mage and is not "blue mage" at it's core.

The only thing at blue mage's core is learning monster skills. Although many ideas leave blue mage with big lists of abilities still, with some nuance on how that is balanced in DF (some have matching types, others forgo "building a set" in DF and do other things with abilities in limited content).

as i said above, its not that its impossible to somehow get blue mage in, its rather that the type of things most people suggest, are either stripping blue mage of its identity/power or that they violate the general design philosophies that SE has decided must be in a regular job.



Simplified grouping (all skills come from leveling, or job quests, at the appropriate levels, no skill checks, or lockouts)
Clear Role (every one is either tank/dps/healer and is noticeably defecient in every other role)
Follows basic action rules(CC on limited time frames {usuually 30 secs} limited unique effects per job etc)
No weird or unbalanced skills for groups (self destruct/white wind/peculiar light/needles/% health skills, gambling skills)


to be honest its probably mostly the first two that made them make it into a limited job, mostly the first one. Once they decided that, their was no reason to put most of the other limitations based on grouping paradigms on the class.

[Elkanah]

You know, I will be honest; while I'm sad that BLU is a limited job, I'm (mostly) upset that the job had to be capped at 50 on release. It couldn't be 70 with all jobs like every other job in the game. Adding spells for 60, 70, 80, I can manage with those later. But the fact that almost all primals shoot for a 1 shot mechanic to instantly kill a BLU at 50 is what pisses me off. If the job was at 70 to begin with, partying with other people or soloing the instances wouldn't have been so bad. I would've rather enjoyed it. Instead, I had nothing but frustration and being pissed off at BLU for spells being difficult to get (in an instance that I can't solo) and a less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% drop rate for that. It's not a solo job. It's not a party job. It's just limited. Limited to everything in general. Release the cap to 80 and let the players figure things out (when shadowbringers arrives), and then make adjustments as needed. Not at 50 where everything kills you (even with maxed out gear at current ilvl and max ilvl food).

[Physic]

You know, I will be honest; while I'm sad that BLU is a limited job, I'm (mostly) upset that the job had to be capped at 50 on release. It couldn't be 70 with all jobs like every other job in the game. Adding spells for 60, 70, 80, I can manage with those later. But the fact that almost all primals shoot for a 1 shot mechanic to instantly kill a BLU at 50 is what pisses me off. If the job was at 70 to begin with, partying with other people or soloing the instances wouldn't have been so bad. I would've rather enjoyed it. Instead, I had nothing but frustration and being pissed off at BLU for spells being difficult to get (in an instance that I can't solo) and a less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% drop rate for that. It's not a solo job. It's not a party job. It's just limited. Limited to everything in general. Release the cap to 80 and let the players figure things out (when shadowbringers arrives), and then make adjustments as needed. Not at 50 where everything kills you (even with maxed out gear at current ilvl and max ilvl food).

that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

[Elkanah]

that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

Fighting it AT 50 makes sense if it made it possible to obtain the spells at an increased rate. But who does capped content anymore? Why? NOTHING in this game provides any benefits to anyone in any content. The content is dead water. Did it have to be extremes? Couldn't have also just been story versions under the level 50 cap? That would've also made more sense to learn. LMAO. ENDANGER? Are you kidding me? What content is endangering? What content is endangering to ANY job at 70 that can't be killed uncapped for no reason? Ponies were boosted and everyone still does them uncapped. Whistles for birds were increased and all those dungeons are uncapped and farmed. The rate may not be the absolute best in terms of rngesus, but it's hardly endangering to anyone, let alone blu's being the need to be the red headed step child we want to abandon and throw away in the street. Going 10 levels above is no different than being at 50. It might as well be considered a waste of time.

If the job was uncapped at 70, and adjustments were made over the months or time, then sure. I can get that. Again, I can even worry about spells 50-70 (now 80 at ShB) at a later time. The job has absolutely no reason to be capped for any reason, since it's a "solo" job that can access duty finder unsynced. I didn't consider getting the lower level spells that were worth nothing till I was at 50 already. I went back and soloed the level 16-18 dungeons to get those. How is that any different than being uncapped at 70? It doesn't whatsoever.

[Boreal]

that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

In addition to the poster above, let's not forget this content is balanced around having two tanks and two healers on synced.
Because, I swear, we tried to do Shiva Ex with a full BLU party, and we lasted about 8 minutes, before Shiva just started cleaving everyone to hell and back.

I can assure you Mighty Guard and White Wind will never be replacements to dedicated tanks and healers. Now, finding 4 people not needing the spell themselves willing to help kill Shiva 50+ times on synced would be nigh impossible. Yeah, maybe we could do away with one healer and have the BLU use White Wind when needed, but we'd still need two tanks and one healer for ressurects, at very least.