Dispensers of fiery explosions, light me up... with your ideas for BLM in 5.0

[Lauront]

Is there a reason why Black Mage hasn't gotten Ultima yet? I mean, why Foul instead of Ultima?

There is, at the least, a lore reason for it, and that is that Ultima requires a high density of aether to be channeled. Ultima Weapon could do it because it contained the Heart of Sabik, which in turn contains a fragment of Zodiark's power.

Which is also why it's silly when I see this come up as a spell for RDMs, who rely on their own aetheric reserves. BLM could get it, but probably a downgraded version.

[MagiusNecros]

Give them Ultima Spark. Done.

[Shurrikhan]

You don't need a smn unless you're trying to pad your personal damage. As it stands right now, with only one caster in a party, blm is now competitive for tDPS with smn. Barely. Being that smn still has a raise and full mobility, it shouldn't even be this close but that's whatever. The point is if blm total potential decreases just a little in favor of making the job easier for people that don't play it often, it'll just go back to being a sub par choice to a smn in every aspect.

We're actually seeing blm in some speed kill comps again. Let's not lose this. Lowering the dps potential of the job to make it less unforgiving and maybe more mobile will just make it a worse smn that can't raise people.

It's not about needing or not needing a SMN. And in higher-level play, the emphasis isn't on your personal damage (pDPS), but on the damage you bring overall (tDPS). In that regard, BLM doesn't bring any more damage with a SMN than without; the SMN just brings more damage by virtue of their being a BLM, and does this best by using Contagion just before your first Fire IV every other elemental cycle and fitting its own flexibly timed damage into that same period of burst.

The thing holding back BLM is not SMN. A SMN wants a BLM so that it can better milk it's damage. What holds back BLM are (1) other jobs' codependence, such as DRG upon BRD and MCH, (2) the sheer power of Refresh which makes Ranged obligatory (and in turn DRG and in turn MCH), (3) burst phase window synergy (as Trick Attack can time damn well with MCH, SMN, SAM, and DRG -- not that BLM doesn't juice it well after first SpS breakpoint for 4 consecutive Fire IVs before needing to refresh AF without LL), and (5) its immobility, which gives SAM a pDPS lead and SMN (even as a single caster) a notable tDPS lead depending on the fight.

The Devs are already aware that DRG+Ranged is a problem, and is only going to get worse with each Piercing class so long as Disembowel remains as is. That leaves only a need for increased control by which to ensure one exploits (or is exploited by) their raid buffs as well as possible and by which to reduce loss of uptime even in fights that would seem able to uniquely cost you significant portions thereof. Add those and balance around it and the only negative effect is that you don't make SAM non-competitive in some fights, while you in turn remain a competitive choice in more fights.

[Seraphyel]

Creating a new resource is one option. Just like how Polyglot was created for Foul, have something new to build up for an Ultima spell. So it changes your gameplay by having you work around this new resource and how the cast of Ultima then fits into your rotation (Where replacing Foul just means that whenever you'd Foul now, you'd just cast Ultima)

An example would be something like making Astral Hearts and Penumbral Hearts be a thing generated from a specific Fire/Lightning spell respectively. With Ultima then costing 3 Umbral Hearts, 3 Astral Hearts and 3 Penumbral Hearts (Also then meaning you would need to regain those Umbral Hearts to do your next Astral Fire phase at the normal 313 ratio or would instead just skip the refreshing of them and do a weaker 3-4 Fire IV's and then swapping).

Another example could be something that stacks up whenever you generate a new Astral/Umbral stack (So 3 per swap between AF/UI) and once you get enough stacks you can cast Ultima.

Maybe an "Enhanced Polyglot" that requires you to spend X time in both Astral Fire and Umbral Ice phases with Enochian active in order to activate, potentially making it a DPS gain to spend more than 2 GCD's in UI.

There's plenty of possibilities that can make a new massively powerful spell an interesting addition to BLM's kit without just pasting it on top of Foul.

This sounds so complicated and would make the life of a (console) BLM not easier. It's just too much when Ultima gets an entirely new ressource. That's why my suggestion was to just make it "Foul II" but a lot more powerful (like 40-50% stronger, as I mentioned). Or maybe the easiest solution, let Enochian stack, e.g. you can have more than just one crystal popping up and you can decided: do I use it with one stack for Foul or do I wait for two stacks to cast Ultima 50% or do I even wait for three stacks and cast Ultima 100%?

[Kalise]

This sounds so complicated and would make the life of a (console) BLM not easier. It's just too much when Ultima gets an entirely new ressource. That's why my suggestion was to just make it "Foul II" but a lot more powerful (like 40-50% stronger, as I mentioned). Or maybe the easiest solution, let Enochian stack, e.g. you can have more than just one crystal popping up and you can decided: do I use it with one stack for Foul or do I wait for two stacks to cast Ultima 50% or do I even wait for three stacks and cast Ultima 100%?

That's the issue.

Adding in a new spell, should come with some gameplay shift, not just add potency to an existing skill. Fire IV added in a new gameplay where you have a spell that doesn't refresh Astral Fire that you want to use. Blizzard IV added in a new Umbral Heart mechanic. Foul brought with it the Polyglot resource.

New resources are easy ways to create gameplay shifts, especially for a class that has high competition for its primary resource (MP = Fire IV)

Even with your suggestion for stacking Polyglot, it's just ridiculous what would be required for there to be actual thought behind it.

2 stacks for 50% of Ultima (Which, in of itself, is a dumb idea... Casting half of the ultimate black magic?) would need to be at LEAST 1300 potency to BREAK EVEN with just casing Foul twice with those 2 Polyglots. Suggesting that full Ultima would be at least 2600 potency and also always a DPS gain (Meaning that Foul and 50% Ultima are wastes of Polyglot outside the target dying before you can generate the 3rd stack) since 2600 potency for 3 Polyglot stacks is 866.66 potency per Polyglot stack (Compared to Foul's 650)

That's not a decision, that's simply, wait for 3 stack Polyglot and use Ultima. If target will die in less than 90 seconds, use Foul/50% Ultima.

Again, the same effect could be made by simply buffing Foul to 866.66 potency. It's not new or interesting.

[Seraphyel]

That's the issue.

Adding in a new spell, should come with some gameplay shift, not just add potency to an existing skill. Fire IV added in a new gameplay where you have a spell that doesn't refresh Astral Fire that you want to use. Blizzard IV added in a new Umbral Heart mechanic. Foul brought with it the Polyglot resource.

New resources are easy ways to create gameplay shifts, especially for a class that has high competition for its primary resource (MP = Fire IV)

Even with your suggestion for stacking Polyglot, it's just ridiculous what would be required for there to be actual thought behind it.

2 stacks for 50% of Ultima (Which, in of itself, is a dumb idea... Casting half of the ultimate black magic?) would need to be at LEAST 1300 potency to BREAK EVEN with just casing Foul twice with those 2 Polyglots. Suggesting that full Ultima would be at least 2600 potency and also always a DPS gain (Meaning that Foul and 50% Ultima are wastes of Polyglot outside the target dying before you can generate the 3rd stack) since 2600 potency for 3 Polyglot stacks is 866.66 potency per Polyglot stack (Compared to Foul's 650)

That's not a decision, that's simply, wait for 3 stack Polyglot and use Ultima. If target will die in less than 90 seconds, use Foul/50% Ultima.

Again, the same effect could be made by simply buffing Foul to 866.66 potency. It's not new or interesting.

True. The problem I see here is if SE doesn't get rid of "old" mechanics I see no chance that there will be new ones because it's too much. Same issue for Summoner. They can't just add more and more new conditions you have to fulfill to benefit by your new spells, the gauges are already quite complicated and by overbloating them with more stuff it doesn't really get better.

[Zerathor]

It's not about needing or not needing a SMN. And in higher-level play, the emphasis isn't on your personal damage (pDPS), but on the damage you bring overall (tDPS). In that regard, BLM doesn't bring any more damage with a SMN than without; the SMN just brings more damage by virtue of their being a BLM, and does this best by using Contagion just before your first Fire IV every other elemental cycle and fitting its own flexibly timed damage into that same period of burst.

The thing holding back BLM is not SMN. A SMN wants a BLM so that it can better milk it's damage. What holds back BLM are (1) other jobs' codependence, such as DRG upon BRD and MCH, (2) the sheer power of Refresh which makes Ranged obligatory (and in turn DRG and in turn MCH), (3) burst phase window synergy (as Trick Attack can time damn well with MCH, SMN, SAM, and DRG -- not that BLM doesn't juice it well after first SpS breakpoint for 4 consecutive Fire IVs before needing to refresh AF without LL), and (5) its immobility, which gives SAM a pDPS lead and SMN (even as a single caster) a notable tDPS lead depending on the fight.

The Devs are already aware that DRG+Ranged is a problem, and is only going to get worse with each Piercing class so long as Disembowel remains as is. That leaves only a need for increased control by which to ensure one exploits (or is exploited by) their raid buffs as well as possible and by which to reduce loss of uptime even in fights that would seem able to uniquely cost you significant portions thereof. Add those and balance around it and the only negative effect is that you don't make SAM non-competitive in some fights, while you in turn remain a competitive choice in more fights.

I feel you're really not understanding the point I'm trying to convey here. Nobody does double caster in a real composition. I'm talking about at this moment, where smn mch and blm are competing for the 4th dps slot, blm is now competitive. Just. Barely. From their raw damage. Decreasing this damage would make smn crush it again.

[Eli85]

I feel you're really not understanding the point I'm trying to convey here. Nobody does double caster in a real composition. I'm talking about at this moment, where smn mch and blm are competing for the 4th dps slot, blm is now competitive. Just. Barely. From their raw damage. Decreasing this damage would make smn crush it again.

Nobody does double caster in real composition? The #6 ranked speed run on Final Omega has double caster. As does the #3 run on Chaos, #7 on Midgardsormr, and #5 on Omega, just to list a few examples. So let's drop this false narrative of double caster doesn't exist in real composition—because it does.

edit: Just to add, the #1 and #2 ranked speedruns for Final Omega (pre-echo) is double caster. Just to add in the list of examples.

[Kabooa]

Nobody does double caster in real composition? The #6 ranked speed run on Final Omega has double caster. As does the #3 run on Chaos, #7 on Midgardsormr, and #5 on Omega, just to list a few examples. So let's drop this false narrative of double caster doesn't exist in real composition—because it does.

edit: Just to add, the #1 and #2 ranked speedruns for Final Omega (pre-echo) is double caster. Just to add in the list of examples.

Yeah, and you can safely bet most if not all of them as individuals probably didn't do their prog as double caster.

[Zerathor]

Nobody does double caster in real composition? The #6 ranked speed run on Final Omega has double caster. As does the #3 run on Chaos, #7 on Midgardsormr, and #5 on Omega, just to list a few examples. So let's drop this false narrative of double caster doesn't exist in real composition—because it does.

edit: Just to add, the #1 and #2 ranked speedruns for Final Omega (pre-echo) is double caster. Just to add in the list of examples.

forgot fflogs defaulted to echo clears now and I missed those. But thanks for bringing attention to the least relevant part of the argument and ignoring the rest I suppose.

Either way, the point remains on blm's current position. Any drop will destroy it again.