Reasons for Ban

[Jaywalker]

Maybe practice some introspection? :v Think back on the things you have done in the past week or so and think what you might have done/said to upset someone? Were you talking about politics? Religion? Trans people? Since you're complaining about the SJWs, I think that it was probably one of those three.

In fairness, heard there was a situation not long ago where someone got banned because another player kept insisting Omega was trans in a raid chat. When the banned party said they didn't interpret that way, allegedly the person accused them of transphobia and reported. I've seen some people misuse the term SJW in FFXIV over really trivial nonsense, and the person Gula encountered does sound like a brat imo. But hypersensitive extremists who are ready to accuse anyone not in lockstep of bigotry are very much a thing. Tbh just playing FFXIV where there's any concept of beauty whatsoever while not condemning all fanservice would be enough to get us blanket accused of misogyny, body shaming, and objectification in some circles.

[Doozer]

In fairness, heard there was a situation not long ago where someone got banned because another player kept insisting Omega was trans in a raid chat. When the banned party said they didn't interpret that way, allegedly the person accused them of transphobia and reported. I've seen some people misuse the term SJW in FFXIV over really trivial nonsense, and the person Gula encountered does sound like a brat imo. But hypersensitive extremists who are ready to accuse anyone not in lockstep of bigotry are very much a thing. Tbh just playing FFXIV where there's any concept of beauty whatsoever while not condemning all fanservice would be enough to get us blanket accused of misogyny, body shaming, and objectification in some circles.

I want to assure you, as someone who runs in 'SJW' circles, people who go around screeching about the most minor things being bigotry are a vocal minority. While there's certainly issues of misogyny and whatnot in video games (especially fantasy-themed ones), we don't spend our entire time complaining about it and yelling at people in-game who disagree. The 'SJWs' people oft complain about are a strawman that is extremely rare and/or just someone who hates SJWs and pretends to be a caricature of one to stir up hatred towards them.

But like others have said, OP, cursing isn't the only form of offensive language there is. I can't really go into examples, but they usually relate to -- for lack of a better term -- protected groups, so you need to be aware of what you're saying based on things like race, gender, sexuality, etc. because while you may think it's funny it could be extremely offensive, and not in the "wah I'm offended #triggered" way that people like to make it seem, but it can actually be extremely upsetting; usually because people encounter harassment or language of that kind irl, and really don't need to endure even more of it in a game that's supposed to be fun.

[Jaywalker]

--Snip for length--

Respectfully, I think you and I might have different standards for what constitutes an SJW.

The spots I come from, I've personally seen "SJWs" commit illegal actions like doxing, forming cyber mobs, trying to get people fired from work, forming professional blacklists, swatting, pushing people to the edge of suicide, promotion of segregation, using slurs against anyone (especially members of underrepresented groups) who disagrees, advocating violence, exploiting those suffering mental illness, committing acts of assault, committing acts of vandalism, going on smear campaigns, looking for acceptable targets for aggression, the list goes on. And all of the things I've mentioned? People will do it over fictional stories to innocent people.

I don't say any of these things lightly, in exaggeration, or without having a huge collection of specific examples to back them up. There's not a trick or a catch where the victims were secretly monsters to warrant the abuse they received. I understand very well how these people went from well-intentioned activism and got twisted into bigots and criminals themselves and I know why they think they're morally in the right for their behavior. It's an ongoing issue and has been for several years. Some of the incidents I mentioned are actually going to court thank god. Being here, I'm currently working to recover from being frankly pretty traumatized by what I've witnessed. The number of people participating in this behavior, where I'm coming from, is alarmingly high too.

I know people misuse both words, but for me personally (and I'm both a woman and a less-visible minority, for what it's worth) I seriously put similar weight on the term SJW as I'd put on neo-nazi. I've had situations where I've been walking down the street and had to honestly ask myself which extremist faction would pose a bigger personal threat. Sometimes there are people who use "activist" as interchangeable with SJW, but honestly I have no problem with regular activists. A lot of my stances could be classed as traditionally liberal, and I'm someone who likes to actively seek out new perspectives in media too. But condemning the abuses I listed above, that alone can make you a target with these people.

I have not seen anyone in FFXIV so far who would constitute an honest-to-god SJW as I know them. I've seen people falsely accuse others of being SJWs, and when that happens I try to point out that they're being ridiculous. I have seen a few people here who are honestly bigoted (mainly targeting Koreans, which I seriously wish they wouldn't) and do know what you mean about people targeting the groups you mentioned. Those things are problems too. In my experience though, the right-leaning identitarianism tends to be (usually) more casual/superficial and limited to a few jerks. Left-leaning identitarianism as I've encountered it is more about systematically destroying people en masse while creating social hierarchies based on what group you're born into.

For the record. The fact that we can have this conversation without accusing each other of stuff and without serious walking on eggshells to me says you wouldn't be an SJW in my book. It's possible to be socially critical and think there's room to improve things without being part of that ideology.

This background is why I'm inclined to hear OP out more too. In other communities it would be extremely likely that they did nothing any reasonable person would find objectionable but had been targeted regardless... often with staff endorsement. My saying that I'm inclined to be more sympathetic to the GMs overall is a really big deal for me with all of this. Any time I say stuff in defense of SE and their staff, it's in light of them being unbelievably kind and professional particularly compared to what I've encountered before.

[Iscah]

Respectfully, I think you and I might have different standards for what constitutes an SJW.

I think the problem is that the term has been diluted to the point that people don't hear it and think of the extreme acts that you're describing.

I've only seen it used as a dismissive term that gets thrown at anyone with a concern for social-justice issues, by people who disapprove of them.

It's the sort of label that might then be gladly "reclaimed" by a group - "you want to call us 'warriors'? We'll take that! We're not giving up this fight!" - completely unaware that some people use that term to describe something quite different to what they're doing.


If you're talking about extremists, you'll need to specify that, because I don't think "SJW" carries that connotation to a lot of people.

[Doozer]

If you're talking about extremists, you'll need to specify that, because I don't think "SJW" carries that connotation to a lot of people.

Exactly this. I was there when SJW started getting used, and it definitely started and has continued to be a dismissive knee-jerk term to label someone as overreacting or emotional. If I had a dollar for every time people raved about SJWs because a game developer decided to have a female protagonist in their game, well, I'd be able to buy all those games. Extremists come in all flavors, and it's interesting to me that there isn't a widely used term for the same kind of extremists that are in opposition of SJWs. Funny how that is, isn't it.

For the record. The fact that we can have this conversation without accusing each other of stuff and without serious walking on eggshells to me says you wouldn't be an SJW in my book.

The fact that people can be considered an SJW based on different things and opinions proves to me that it's entirely subjective whether someone is an SJW or not. Sorry, but I'm nonbinary (specifically genderqueer), gay, and a whole bunch of other things that would instantly get me labeled an SJW by like 70% of people. There's no point in fighting it at this point. But I'm no 'extremist', so until the term gets a concrete definition, it's pretty useless. However, it's very easy to spot people who probably go around being verbally abrasive in an online game if they go around complaining about SJWs, though.

I had a longer response typed but the page ate it when I tried to quote a second person. :c

[Jaywalker]

The fact that people can be considered an SJW based on different things and opinions proves to me that it's entirely subjective whether someone is an SJW or not. Sorry, but I'm nonbinary (specifically genderqueer), gay, and a whole bunch of other things that would instantly get me labeled an SJW by like 70% of people. There's no point in fighting it at this point. But I'm no 'extremist', so until the term gets a concrete definition, it's pretty useless. However, it's very easy to spot people who probably go around being verbally abrasive in an online game if they go around complaining about SJWs, though.

I had a longer response typed but the page ate it when I tried to quote a second person. :c

No worries! And yeah I get you on this stuff. It's a pretty messy situation and imo more clarity would be better, but with people in general folks are still trying to figure out how to categorize and communicate these things. That plus there's some social reluctance to admit that sort of extremist is possible. So for the time being we have a lot of use with the too-vague slang and are left to puzzle out what the connotation is there. It's a shame because I think that feeds a divide between folks like you and people in my camp where there's no issue with normal activism or diversity, but the extremism has been causing hell. Sometimes the people I've found who get really angry and upset about far-left discrimination will drop insults like soy-boy for example... while ranting and raging because the far-left was really dehumanizing against their best friend, who is black. I've also seen people do stuff like what Gula described who were just obnoxious and bothering people needlessly. It's a really weird situation, and the way I've been trying to navigate at least is just case-by-case.

I can tell you there's a term for people who are doing the stuff like what Gula described, but it's just as (if not more) useless. "Anti-SJW" usually gets used in my experience, and I actually had some confusion for a bit because for a while I thought it just referred to not liking the extremist stuff. Turns out it's more for petulant people who just don't want anyone else to have nice things.

With OP's situation, that's why I think it's important to still hear 'em out. Sometimes people speak in ways that are more abrasive or less, but there can be any number of reasons and being fair is important I figure.

[Doozer]

I can tell you there's a term for people who are doing the stuff like what Gula described, but it's just as (if not more) useless. "Anti-SJW" usually gets used in my experience, and I actually had some confusion for a bit because for a while I thought it just referred to not liking the extremist stuff. Turns out it's more for petulant people who just don't want anyone else to have nice things.

Yes I'm familiar with "anti-SJW", though it's not very widely used, hence what I said. It's funny though, because it initially started as 'anti-SJ' to -- I guess -- oppose the changes that 'SJWs' want, but then it evolved to be 'anti-SJW' to oppose the people themselves. It's easy to see how off the mark they are with 'SJW cringe' videos, because they just pick the ones previously mentioned, the loudest and most extreme ones. You'd never find someone like me in there; not because I'm not an 'SJW', but because I don't fit the narrative of the most cringey and embarrassing actions that they want to showcase as representative of the entire belief system. It's hard for people to accept that entire groups aren't a monolith or hivemind, and have their own morals and ways of communicating and taking action.

But as a piece of advice to OP: If you must openly disagree with someone, consider the language you use. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I always say please and other pleasantries when I'm asking for someone to do something differently. Or if I get spammed with a macro or something I'm like, "Can you not do that, please?" and if they got mad and reported me for disagreeing with them, the GM would clearly see I was being polite. It's very important to consider how you speak to others. People might say that's walking on eggshells or people are too sensitive, but there's literally zero reason to be abrasive or rude. Even if you're irritated, lashing out won't fix the problem. And you don't have to show everyone how mad you are when you interact with them. Something about if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. When it comes to general interactions with people, I feel like it's important to consider that.

[Jaywalker]

If you're talking about extremists, you'll need to specify that, because I don't think "SJW" carries that connotation to a lot of people.

I get you Iscah, and thanks. I have been shifting the terminology I use in the FFXIV community because like you said, people use it differently. Honestly I'd also much rather have the kinds of extremists I'm referencing unheard of here to the point of being considered strawmen than the alternative, it's just been a sort of weird adapting process. From my perspective you guys seem like you're stuck in 2009 haha.

It's also been sort of surreal because of how common the behavior and label use is elsewhere. I've picked up that there are people here who feel terrified to the point of near paranoia that the persecution going on elsewhere could spread to FFXIV, but I've also noticed areas where if extremists did enter they could get an easy hold and cause a lot of damage. I think you guys have some natural deterrents here, like conventionally beautiful body types in-game and using mostly equal-opportunity fanservice instead of none. Part of me is waiting for the other shoe to drop though, because I've seen that happen before. Makes it trickier to tell who's just trying to shut up social criticism and who might have a legitimate issue going on.

I'll keep trying to substitute extremist for SJW or SJ stuff here, but I do want to let you know--in non-videogame and anime communities, SJ will commonly mean left-wing identitarianism. Intersectionality is the way that identitarianism usually gets phrased by the extremists, and the reason it goes bad is because it erases all individual experiences to assume moral character and quality of life exclusively based on demographic. Demographics get judged in ways that are inflexible, absolute, and generalized according to limited parts of the US. It's prevalent to the point that if say, a college course says it uses a social justice lens it can be accurately understood most of the time to promote identitarianism. Extremists who subscribe to that mentality are generally proud of themselves and truly believe what they're doing will help underrepresented groups (even as they beat a pair of Latino marines while calling them racial slurs and accusing the Latino marines of white supremacy, for example) so you might find similar pride in the label with them. I mention this because the extremists are seriously dangerous and I don't want an FFXIV player to run into problems elsewhere because there's a different connotation!

[Iscah]

I get you Iscah, and thanks. I have been shifting the terminology I use in the FFXIV community because like you said, people use it differently. Honestly I'd also much rather have the kinds of extremists I'm referencing unheard of here to the point of being considered strawmen than the alternative, it's just been a sort of weird adapting process. From my perspective you guys seem like you're stuck in 2009 haha.

[...]

I'll keep trying to substitute extremist for SJW or SJ stuff here, but I do want to let you know--in non-videogame and anime communities, SJ will commonly mean left-wing identitarianism. [...] I mention this because the extremists are seriously dangerous and I don't want an FFXIV player to run into problems elsewhere because there's a different connotation!

I feel like you might also be biased (in the inevitable way that a person sees what's around them as "normal") about what the correct usage of the term is. Perhaps SJW strictly means those more extreme examples in whatever experience you have, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct or even common usage of the term elsewhere.

I'm not speaking from a little bubble of nothing but FFXIV-ness. I see the term used in discussions on the comments of news sites or other communities. It's not a backwards ten-years-ago thing for people to understand "SJW" as a petty insult and not a serious issue. It continues to get used loosely, and holds no value for describing specific degrees of activism unless you're certain your audience have the same understanding.

Prior to the rise of it as an insult, I understood the term "social justice" as a positive one - and this seems to be supported by the Wikipedia article on that term. It also defines social justice warrior primarily in terms of it being used as an insult - but also that it only began to be used that way around 2011, and was previously considered a "neutral or complimentary phrase".

So no, we're not stuck in 2009 if we think it's a catch-all insult for views that the writer doesn't like.

[Oopsy]

I feel like you might also be biased (in the inevitable way that you see what's around you as "normal") about what the correct usage of the term is. Perhaps SJW strictly means those more extreme examples in whatever experience you have, but I don't necessarily think that means it's the widespread meaning.

I'm not speaking from a little bubble of nothing but FFXIV-ness. I see the term used in discussions on the comments of news sites or other communities. It's not a backwards ten-years-ago thing for people to understand "SJW" as a petty insult and not a serious issue. It continues to get used loosely, and holds no value for describing specific degrees of activism unless you're certain your audience have the same understanding.

Prior to the rise of it as an insult, I understood the term "social justice" as a positive one - and this seems to be supported by the Wikipedia article on that term. It also defines social justice warrior primarily in terms of it being used as an insult - but also that it only began to be used that way around 2011, and was previously considered a "neutral or complimentary phrase".

So no, we're not stuck in 2009 if we think it's a catch-all insult for views that the writer doesn't like.

Social justice has a negative light in an of itself. You can say it has a positive side and has helped some cases, but social justice does not follow any due process and can be founded upon a lie. It is like vigilantes, sure they are trying to do good but should they be the judge, jury, and executioners? Social justice warriors are vigilantes, in some light they are good, but their actions can cause collateral damage and they are not held accountable for their actions. So we should do what they did in The Incredibles and outlaw all super heroes!

In general Social Justic is mostly like Instant Karma. You do something bad, other people hear about it and they treat you with less respect. Do bad things and bad things will happen.

Social Justice Warriors are people who look for injustices (their perspective) and are more verbal and outgoing about trying to put things right by means of public shaming, Excessive and even at time redundant reporting, organizing others to act out against the person(s), or chewing them out.

My definition is also more of the modern ones I think, I did look up information on it (Hate wiki's they are not a reasonable source, please quote original sources from wiki if you use wiki). I found a rather interesting historical take on it: Michael Novak, "Justice: Not What You Think It Is" The Heritage Foundation, December 29, 2009 ruffly a 30 min read. Very different from what we use it for today. Amazing how much a few years can change a phrase.