Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

[ReiMakoto]

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

Real talk, I loved HW mch, unpopular opinion but give me cast bars back

[Gemina]

I pulled the Alphascape logs in particular because they are the best estimation of jobs being mained by dedicated players. For example, I only run 24-mans and dungeons on MCH, most people I know don't run on their mains in 24-man. And dungeons don't usually get uploaded. "People I know/play with" is obviously a limited group and anecdotal, but evidence to base an opinion on none the less. My point isn't to ascribe what other people do on jobs they merely have capped and run with occasionally, but that I don't feel that looking at the numbers from those other encounters represents Main jobs being played. For the same reason I did not look at post-Echo numbers, because people now are more willing to play jobs they hadn't. I think the Alphascape logs are the best indication of jobs being mained...

I'll agree with you there, but jobs being mained do not represent jobs being played, and this is what the devs have to look at as it is not just end-gamers that deal with the issues present in our jobs; they are only brought more to the surface by the meta. I haven't even touched Alphascape savage with any job, let alone my main jobs, yet here I am; along with several other dissatisfied subscribers. This doesn't mean to throw out this data, but data from all encounters have to be accounted for. It's just a matter of being thorough.

I wasn't trying to say healers are balanced now, only that they are more balanced than tanks overall...

They're not though. Otherwise we'd be getting a 4th healer, or at least be closer to its implementation, but this couldn't be further from true.

...there is still a glaring concern over the desire for SCH.

The concern that should be glaring is the desire for WHM to be more on par with its healing brethren. A glaring concern should be how over-tuned AST is. SCH should be giving you the least amount of concern if I could be quite frank because it is currently the only healer that many healer mains feel is done right. If the other two healers could be designed in such a way that they are not stepping on each other and also provide unique gameplay we would not be having this conversation.

But I don't agree on WHM. They've been the bane of tank aggro since Neo Exdeath. I was pugging god Kefka back then and had a WHM that tanked the entire 1st forsaken phase until Trine. I just let them tank, they finally popped Lucid when they ran out of MP at the beginning of trine phase lol. One of my current healers absolutely hated AST, could not stand it whatsoever (he may have not even had it fully leveled), and would only play WHM or SCH. We cleared this tier with him on SCH and later on got one of our other friends to join who was a SCH main, so my former SCH had to switch to either AST or WHM. He had no idea how to even play AST and know he's playing it anyways, almost exclusively. So, I can't agree that WHM is actually desired.

You're using one example to come to a conclusion and blanket WHM across DCs. Why not use me then? I wouldn't bring WHM into high-end content because I feel like I would be holding the group back. I have a severe disdain for AST due to its lack of identity and being over-tuned. So I would bring my SCH, which might clue you in to its overwhelming number in the data you provided. Trust me when I say WHM is highly desired, and again the frustrations expressed by healers concerning this job is indicative of this desire. They and I want it to be better so we don't feel like the weak link in the chain.

[Neoyoshi]

Maybe they genuinely want to make the healing job's terrifying learning-curve; less terrifying.

I say this with respect to people and friends I've known for quite a number of years- having played primarily a healing role in previous games; like World of Warcraft; Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot; etc, - and I've watched these same friends come into Final Fantasy XIV with Healing role aspirations, and finding themselves getting frustrated with the learning curve.

It is what makes me not want to try it myself.
Healing shouldn't be difficult to learn; it should only be difficult to master.

[Mortex]

If you read what I said, I wasn't referring to Stormblood BRD but Heavensward BRD, which went from absolute garbage in 3.0 to completely broken in 3.4. Compare it to ARR BRD, which was actually nerfed because it was too strong at launch, but which played wonderfully and didn't have casttimes. There hasn't been an expansion yet where BRD wasn't radically changed (but hopefully that stops because, as I said, they got SB BRD right).

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

Also, it's 2% Crit; not 3%. And that's not why SB BRD is the best iteration of the job that BRD has seen over the course of FFXIV 2.0's life, nor is it the Repertoire mechanic. It's the way the job plays: smoothly, while actually incorporating its songs into its rotation and not costing it 10% personal damage to actually support its party members.


Not sure what you're trying to say, if I'm being honest.

I mean it’s simple it shows you it’s either totally crap or good there is mostly no in between, the same with Astro from launch almost to heavenward end. That’s the reason I don’t trust square it’s just that simple.

[Mortex]

That’s more or less the reason what I mean with rebalancing but it’s more or less balancing in general. Yeah it’s still playable, but if it is a joy to play the job is a completely different story and if you want to play high end content and your job is so bad people want you to switch to another job.

[Reiryuu]

Now hold on a minute here. I told you SE had a horrible track record with healers and balance. You responded:

They also had a horrible track record with regards to BRD, but Stormblood BRD turned out fine. More than fine, actually. I don’t see the need to worry until the changes are actually announced and I can see for myself how it may impact the jobs.

Ah, but I forget. That sort of practice isn’t allowed here!

To which I responded with:

But what about MCH? I'm actually legitimately curious with that one, I've heard different things, and I've leveled mine but only really in HoH.

NOW you're saying:

I'm also not talking about MCH, even though it was just as garbage in 3.0 and just as broken in 3.4. The way it plays in 4.0 is trash - I'm already not a fan myself of the job, but at least leveling HW MCH was better than leveling it in SB - but they've addressed that they plan to fix it. So we'll have to just see what they do.

So... what's this about us needing to be confident in balance? Sure your job may be fine, but the job it should be balance with is described by you as "plays like trash" That... doesn't really seem like very good balance, then... does it?

And if we're being told that we can't have a new job due to balance issues, and they're acknowledging that MCH has issues that need addressing, why are they adding a new ranged dps? I mean, SCH and AST play fine, it's just the WHM that needs severe help so... how is this situation any different?

[Ahrijlaken]

Step 1 : Give every healer a big mitigation tool for savage so shield isn't the only thing.

exemple :

SCH -> Shied specialist
AST -> Defensive stance instead of shield that give 10/15% damage reduc during aspected spell and 50/70% damage reduction with Collective Unconscious
WHM -> Invincible field for a short period of time in 15 yard zone.

Step 2 : Give every healer good oGCD and make any healer combinaison working well together. because end game is about oGCD more than gcd.

Step 3 : Give about the same "damage participation" to every healer and either you let balance card but give more personal DPS for WHM/SCH + utility buff or you just remove balance card and ajust.

[Ilyrian]

Maybe they genuinely want to make the healing job's terrifying learning-curve; less terrifying.

I say this with respect to people and friends I've known for quite a number of years- having played primarily a healing role in previous games; like World of Warcraft; Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot; etc, - and I've watched these same friends come into Final Fantasy XIV with Healing role aspirations, and finding themselves getting frustrated with the learning curve.

It is what makes me not want to try it myself.
Healing shouldn't be difficult to learn; it should only be difficult to master.

That's interesting - I would take the opposite view.

If I were suggesting a game to someone who wants to learn how to heal I would suggest FFXIV over WoW.

But of course, it all comes down to personal preference/experience - but certainly at entry level FFXIV's healing mechanics are relatively simple compared to the often manic WoW model.
Having to get into the mindset of DPSing and healing may be more of a shock to the player than the actual base mechanics - but the pace of FFXIV (and the GCD), to my mind, make it an easier transition.

[HyoMinPark]

Now hold on a minute here. I told you SE had a horrible track record with healers and balance.

Your mistake here is that you are assuming I meant balance between BRD and MCH. I was just talking about SE’s track record with BRD alone, not comparing it to other jobs in the role. OP seems concerned about WHM—but the developers have shown that they CAN take a job that has poor design (e.g., HW BRD) and make it into something decent (e.g., SB BRD). We don’t know what they’re going to do. We may find ourselves surprised, or we may not. I don’t see the need to get upset about what we don’t even know, though.




I think their excuse for not having a new healer job is weak—because the same could be applied to both tanks and the physical ranged, so they sort of contradict themselves with it. I honestly think they just don’t know how to design a fourth healer without it being like AST, where it’s a hybrid of the existing healers—though I would prefer to see a melee healer that is more “advanced” in that it heals based on damage dealt, but until they let go of their idea that “healers don’t have to DPS”, we won’t see any sort of advanced healer job like that. But this is all an aside; I never mentioned anything about it.

You seem to think that I think things are fine as they are. I do not. I’m just saying there’s no need to get all riled up before they even announce what’s going to happen, and that’s what OP and a lot of others seem to be doing.

[Reiryuu]

Your mistake here is that you are assuming I meant balance between BRD and MCH. I was just talking about SE’s track record with BRD alone, not comparing it to other jobs in the role. OP seems concerned about WHM—but the developers have shown that they CAN take a job that has poor design (e.g., HW BRD) and make it into something decent (e.g., SB BRD). We don’t know what they’re going to do. We may find ourselves surprised, or we may not. I don’t see the need to get upset about what we don’t even know, though.

Uh... balance usually implies in comparrison with other classes. I mean... how do you balance just one thing? You need something to balance it with. Sure, BRD is a great class. So is RDM. I love RDM. But what has been bothering us and what we are worried about is the balance between the three healers and their competitiveness for static/raid groups in the raid tier content. This is what a lot of us have little confidence in and while the OP does have a very WHM bias, as do I somewhat since it is my preferred healer, the lack of confidence has been resounded by quite a few healers on these forums, so it's not just him/her or me.