Yoshi-P considering feedback on the new races

[J-Reyno]

the argument about lore is incredibly weak. theyve already broken the lore at the end of ARR for gameplay purposes. due to events that transpire you should not be able to go back to uldah. but you can and it's as if nothing happened.

My immersion was broken when I got four WHMs in Orbonne Monastery.

I just really feel like WHM shouldn't be a job you know? It's unacceptable to see so many of them running around. Yoshi needs to follow through and axe WHM from the game.

/s

[Chained_Icarus]

My immersion was broken when I got four WHMs in Orbonne Monastery.

I just really feel like WHM shouldn't be a job you know? It's unacceptable to see so many of them running around. Yoshi needs to follow through and axe WHM from the game.

/s

FOUR white mages?! THAT'LL NEVER WORK!

[WhiteArchmage]

Jesus Christ do people love putting words in my mouth.



https://youtu.be/BA1gwFKq7u0?t=251 It's 100% confirmed. Straight from the horse's mouth. As for everything else, please notice how I stated SPECIFICALLY that certain WORLDS are the same, while others are simply CONNECTED. The fact that Ivalice shows up in multiple Final Fantasies means said Final Fantasies are connected. That also means Garlean technology being an obvious throwback/connection to FF6. It's even named Magitek. That is a connection, whether you believe it or not. That's one of the foundations of the whole Final Fantasy series - these connections between each world that define them as part of the Final Fantasy multiverse. If there were zero connections, we would not see Ivalice in FFXIV. We would not see moogles in every FF. we would not see chocobos in all of them either. I'm really not sure how much more I can explain this to you.

First off, that's why I said retconned. The Ultimania eventually said "Shinra's descendants moved to another planet and became the ShinRa corporation in FF7", so Kitase was being partly comical and mostly going with "Sure, let's go with that." Connections may be the wrong word there since they're actually references: Shiva in V is not the same as in VI, VII, VIII, etc. Moogles don't share the same design between one FF and the next, among other things. Dissidia does a better job actually connecting the games, but it's still iffy if the events of the Dissidia games canonically happened for the Warriors or not.

Well gee, didn't know saying my profession would make people think I'm a snob. That's what I get for trying to explain my point of view I guess! Also, you definitely did not read my post, as I stated later on within it that I would be happy to see both races have both genders, which means changing XIV's lore about them. Nowhere at all did I state in any of my posts in this whole entire forum that they absolutely can not change Viera lore - only that at most it could be potentially hard, and at least it explains their reasoning for not having male viera. Look up my posts. I don't have many of them.

On this I will actually apologize because many others HAVE been crying "But Lore!" and trying to hide behind Matsuno (who washed his hands off this) or the already flimsy Lore in-game, while ignoring that Viera lore in XIV borrows heavily from Miqo'te Keeper of the Moon, XII lore being more ambiguous by simply stating that males and females live in separate villages, and we never explore the entirety of Golmore Jungle (We needed Fran to guide us to Eryut Village in the first place, for example). I do agree that if XIV feels the need to retcon the current Lore for their Viera (Vis in the First Shard), it's their game to do so, and I should probably not be surfing the Forums already cranky <.<

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

I meant the person I initially replied to, not you (at least I'm pretty sure it wasn't you).

So if you're willing to suspend belief there's only 1 Warrior of Light (one), and the classes there should be only one of (Dark Knight, White Mage, Scholar, Azure Dragoon, etc), why can't you extend that to the Veira? If I am the Warrior of Light in my game, I agree to believe you are not one (though you are in your game). Why can you not believe the Veira are still extremely rare despite players playing them?

We couldn't ALL meet Fray, take up an oath with Sidgurdu and become a Dark Knight, yet there are hundreds of us. We couldn't all go recreate the legendary weapon Excalibur. We can't all canonically have Midgardsormr as our buddy pet/mount. But these things are overlooked. I'm trying to figure out what makes these things exceptions but not a race, which there would be more of than these things.

I mean..there literally only is 1 WoL in XIV, at least with how the Narration goes. The Main player of their playthrough is the 1 WoL. And yes, by how the games narration goes, you as the main player are the WoL, and everyone else you fight with is an Adventure. There are even Dialogue moments when they say "Gather your fellow adventures and prepare for this fight" you are referred to as the WoL, nobody else, in YOUR playthrough as the Main character.
And If we are going by Job stones, you dont need to be a WoL to have one. These are Crystals that house memories of a Person that mastered said art. (If Im remembering that lore correctly)
Actually yeah, we could all recreate the Weapons. Its just get materials and meet this drunk and skilled Smith.

I understand where you are coming from and the argument your making. I can't argue against it, nobody can. At the same time, comparing a Races lore that has been established, against why every individual player can have an item or do a side quest is still abit ridiculous. My playthrough of a game doesn't effect your world in your playthrough of a game.
The Viera, a race in the FF mythos directly effects everyone, because, once again, going off of lore...the Males are never seen. There has to be a lore reason to support why they would make themselves known. The Lore would need to Evolve and be added to, to allow Male Viera to exist outside of their bubble. You can't just say make them exist because they should, or because I want them to, or compare them to other items or to other races and use external instances as a reason.

But hey, this is just my viewpoint.
I can't actually explain or excuse any design choice in anything, just give my opinion on it.

[Melichoir]

Snip Snip

Ok.

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

This is snobbery. It's an "I know more cause I do a thing" argument and how it triggers you when someone criticizes how they see the lore. Hence what I said. Its not a spit in anyone's face, and your phrasing makes you appear as a snob. You shouldnt be getting triggered over another person's commentary, let alone talking on behalf of all creatives.

Second, as I keep saying, it matters little what other FF games say cause theyre overall not connected. You mention two games that are 'directly' connected through a one off. And then go to mention games that borrow concepts. Unfortunately, FFXIV does this a lot. But it's not indicative that theyre the 'same world' or even connected. Maybe in a multiverse theory, sure, but that just makes it easier to write FFXIV Viera being different (couldve reversed it for all was done and made it male only viera where the females hid away).

This is important cause the a point that keeps getting brought up is how it's not in the FFT and 12 Lore, therefore cant have male viera. Thats a moot point. Those lore points dont matter. And the lore in FFXIV is flimsy. This was my problem with your post because you were talking about how hard it is to change the lore and quite literally the lore for Viera from the raid is maybe a page or so at best and is mostly background lore.

Third paragraph: Already answered in my latest post. You people seem to confuse me explaining the differences between FFXIV's lore and Viera's lore with something entirely different. Stop putting words in my mouth. I want both genders for both races. I've stated this three times already. However I won't apologize for also keeping lore in mind with said desires.

So theres this:

Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think.

If your "overarching" narrative of FF is in relation to all ff games, then that is a really silly point. There is no overall canon narrative of concequence. Even considering loose connections mentioned, that doesnt mean every FF game is somehow connected in some larger narrative or grand scheme. As far as anything goes, most FFs are stand alone stories and worlds. If its in relation to FFXIV, then my statement stands: Youre overselling the point because FFXIVs in game lore is weak regarding this. If youre referencing other FFs take on Viera, it goes back to who cares how they did it. Theyre not FFXIV.

So what exactly are you saying? Your posts are somewhat all over. YOu want to have both sexes, but you want to keep the lore, and the 'established' lore says no to that, and changing lore is a difficult thing, but not really in this case cause theres not much in FFXIVs case? You seem to be making points all over hte place, and frankly some of it comes across as "The lore says no, so thats that."

Edit:

Soul clarifies again in a later post. So all this is moot then.

[craybest]

im glad they are listening, it's pretty much the only thing they can do for now, and the community response has been pretty clear on what they want.

[Chained_Icarus]

e a WoL to have one. These are Crystals that house memories of a Person that mastered said art. (If Im remembering that lore correctly)
Actually yeah, we could all recreate the Weapons. Its just get materials and meet this drunk and skilled Smith.

That's not entirely true.
While you don't need to be the WoL explicitly to get a Crystal, there are a finite number of them. For many Jobs, there's literally just the one you have. Curious Gorge gives you the only other Warrior one in Eorzea, as he has the other and they're protected by his tribe. You take the Dark Knight one off of Fray's body, which Sidgurdu heavily implies is the only other one. The Scholar one is one of a kind according to the tonberries and is uniquely linked to a specific fairy (Eos/Lilly). There are a few others.

The weapons actually are unique, at least the ARR ones are. The very first thing Gerolt sends you to get is an older legendary weapon that has been forgotten to use as the base - a singular one in existence. He's genuinely surprised when you manage to bring it back because he believed there was no way you could find the one single weapon in all of existence to use as the initial base to start it off. The HW one is strongly implied to only be possible BECAUSE you're the WoL and your personal strength is what feeds into the Anima.

The lore says they're never seen but then that becomes unbelievable lore. Consider the world of Eorzea/Hydalyn: We have airships, instant teleportation across the globe, scrying crystals, Ascians (who have been involved with like, everyone ever), etc. That an entire gender of a race could go completely unseen is frankly unbelievable. That not a single male Viera chooses to ignore tradition and venture forth is unbelievable. Sure, I can write a story and say something is true to my story and it would be because I'm the author, but that doesn't make it GOOD lore or a GOOD story.

It's just a weak lore excuse and I could do better. Here's a few loose examples that still fit within the FFXIV world:

Males are born with a strange disease in their blood that manifests upon maturity. The only way to counteract it is a special fruit / spring water that exists in their forest that quickly loses its potency so it cannot be stored for later. Because of this all Viera Males stay within their forest and dedicate their lives to its protection.

Now they physically cannot go far from the woods or they die while still serving a purpose. Is it still lame? Absolutely. Does it have a resolution to add them later? Sure, the WoL and co curses the disease so they're free to explore.

As it stands right now "They just never, EVER come out" has no real hook or motivation to EVER rectify that without a lazy retcon... it's also a lazy reason.

I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. It's been helpful

[SoulEchelon]

snip

I'll admit I was gearing up for a nerdrage rebuttal, but we seemed to have found some common ground finally. When it comes to "Connections" I speak more of the fact that there are very similar themes, peoples, and societies in the Final Fantasy games, which is the backbone of the series. I didn't mean Garlemald was from FF6 or anything like that of course. Just that the technology on showcase means that these two worlds have a...well, connection. I can't really think of another word for it. But they aren't the same world. Like perhaps the same world but in a different dimension? Which, when you think of Dissidia and other nods towards dimensional/universal travel in this game series, it doesn't sound very far fetched. I feel Squeenix is specifically keeping this vague though just to stoke the fires of mystery among the community. But then you think about the Omega raids and the Crystal Tower and the Shards and Lightning in a Miqo'te outfit and just....oof.

Anyways I digress. I accept the apology and frankly I generally agree with your assessment. I think wires just got crossed and words misread. TL;DR of my thoughts is: I'm all for both Male Viera and Female Hrothgar, however I also take lore into the equation. Lore can always change, but I'd rather it not be shoehorned in just because the players want it - especially when it's as established as Viera lore is in FF. If we're gonna get bunny boys, I wanna know why. I want to see what made them leave their forests to join society like their female counterparts. Hell, give me a questline in game explaining it or something. I'd love that.

Although, that makes me curious. How do they explain no female Hrothgar? They're obviously Ronso (Their alternate name in the new shard we're going to is Ronso if I remember correctly), so where are the ladies? Guess we'll find out.

[SoulEchelon]

Ok.

I "Snip" because of the word limit.

This is snobbery. It's an "I know more cause I do a thing" argument and how it triggers you when someone criticizes how they see the lore. Hence what I said. Its not a spit in anyone's face, and your phrasing makes you appear as a snob. You shouldnt be getting triggered over another person's commentary, let alone talking on behalf of all creatives.

So next time someone tells you they have a little experience in a topic, I want you to point them in the face and call them a snob, because that's what you're doing. If you're this hurt by someone simply explaining where they're coming from, then I highly suggest you never join a debate team. You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and stoking flames where there isn't any. You can continue if you want, but I won't acknowledge it.

Annnnnd everything else I've already answered. Read up, won't repeat myself, and won't be answering you again. Argument over.

[Duskane]

Hopefully he actually says something unless he wants this becomes the new Question he gets at every Q&A.