Yoshi-P considering feedback on the new races

[J-Reyno]

I mean obviously they wouldn't be, but it's plain that this was meant to give people a new option for a beastial race that we've never really had before, while at the same time kind of appeasing people that persistently asked for viera.

Maybe so, but it's ironic that the people wanting male Viera were a large part of the voice making the demand known, thereby helping us get them only to... not... actually get them.

SE: "well yes, but actually no"

[whiskeybravo]

Your disingenuity is showing.

So is your lack of reading skills.

My comment was in context of this sentiment:

Trying to bring up the 'lore' to defend it feels like a chap excuse all things considered and that annoys me.

IF saying lore is a cheap excuse, then so to is claiming it was due to development resources (because they obviously had the resources to create 2 genders).

Maybe so, but it's ironic that the people wanting male Viera were a large part of the voice making the demand known, thereby helping us get them only to... not... actually get them.

Nobody even knows what a "male" Viera is. They could've called Hrothgar male Viera instead and no one would really be able to dispute. This whole thing is beyond silly.

[Arkdra]

So is your lack of reading skills.

My comment was in context of this sentiment:



IF saying lore is a cheap excuse, then so to is claiming it was due to development resources (because they obviously had the resources to create 2 genders).

Development resources and lore are excusing different things. You're right that they obviously have the resources to create two genders, but they opted to do a split race instead. Based on the reaction, this appears to have been an incorrect calculation, to put it mildly (and fwiw, I definitely would rather have just had Viera or Hrothgar of both genders over this split thing). Development resources are a real thing though and they made their decision in the framework of what they thought they could do. There's a reasonable debate to be had over how they chose to spend their resources, but no reason to not take the costs of creation at face value.

Lore is made up tomfoolery that can be changed at literally any time for any reason. Literally it's as simple as going, "Some male Viera grow fed up with their isolationist lifestyle and seek comradery in the major cities." This is why it's a lousy excuse. Ishgard was isolationist until it wasn't. Limsa was a lawless den of pirates until it wasn't (sorta). The elemental's power is absolute, until it wasn't. Black and White Magic were forbidden, until they weren't. Ascians were unkillable, until they got deaded. The lore saying Viera men never leave the forest isn't sacrosanct, it's bad lore they shouldn't have written to begin with because it is insane.

[whiskeybravo]

Development resources and lore are excusing different things. You're right that they obviously have the resources to create two genders, but they opted to do a split race instead. Based on the reaction, this appears to have been an incorrect calculation, to put it mildly (and fwiw, I definitely would rather have just had Viera or Hrothgar of both genders over this split thing). Development resources are a real thing though and they made their decision in the framework of what they thought they could do. There's a reasonable debate to be had over how they chose to spend their resources, but no reason to not take the costs of creation at face value.

Lore is made up tomfoolery that can be changed at literally any time for any reason. Literally it's as simple as going, "Some male Viera grow fed up with their isolationist lifestyle and seek comradery in the major cities." This is why it's a lousy excuse. Ishgard was isolationist until it wasn't. Limsa was a lawless den of pirates until it wasn't (sorta). The elemental's power is absolute, until it wasn't. Black and White Magic were forbidden, until they weren't. Ascians were unkillable, until they got deaded. The lore saying Viera men never leave the forest isn't sacrosanct, it's bad lore they shouldn't have written to begin with because it is insane.

Just because they released 2 races doesn't mean 2 races were originally on the table. People are seeing 2 races and basically assuming they got shafted. It makes a bit more sense if you consider they may have had hesitation for releasing a male Viera, because of Lore and other reasons, and from this perspective they decided it might be better to introduce a second race for males. Developmental resources in no way would've played a part - since even allocating for a new race design would assume at least enough resources for both genders.

Whether or not you, or anyone else, believes Lore is a valid justification (although, it always seems to be when it's convenient) SE has certainly made, or not made, creative decisions based entirely upon it. I'm not saying lore is the end all be all, but it's their creative universe so it's up to them to decide how important it is. And regardless, it most certainly played more of a factor than "development resources".

Telling SE the lore of Final Fantasy is irrelevant lol. Talk about entitlement.

[Khalithar]

He already knew what the feedback on the races was going to be. There's no way they didn't see the situation going this way.

[Ayer2015]

Just finish what you started SE..... We dont need more 1/2 done races

[whiskeybravo]

He already knew what the feedback on the races was going to be. There's no way they didn't see the situation going this way.

If they released male Viera it would've drawn the same criticism, only of a different flavor (aesthetics).

I stand by my statement, if they just called Hrothgar male-Viera instead the community would've been none the wiser. But making a controversy out of nothing is what the internet does best.

[SoulEchelon]

snip

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

People will never be happy.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

A+
10/10
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