Yoshi-P considering feedback on the new races

[SoulEchelon]

snip

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

A+
10/10
Here have an ice cream Bar

[LaylaTsarra]

A+
10/10
Here have an ice cream Bar

I totally agree and I'll certainly thumbs up her/his post as well.

[WhiteArchmage]

Snip

Except that: A) The Final Fantasy worlds are not connected. Changing a race in one does not do anything for the other: See: Moogles, who have not appeared the same in one FF to the next.
B) Koji's explicitly said that any lore is from the PoV of whoever says it, and NPCs can be wrong. Even the Encyclopedia Eorzea is written "in-character" in case it needs to be retconned later. See: The Acheron/Phlegethon debacle.
C) Sakaguchi has no say in the company since he "resigned," Viera were a creation of Matsuno (with Akihiko Yoshida) and he's denied any involvement with this decision. And he wrote the RtI scenario.
D) Yoshida said "lore" and later it came out that lore wasn't even in the decision-making process. And the Viera as they exist in XIV could have any other lore. In fact, the one they have could still support males.

We didnt need a new race to begin with, but people wanted Viera. We got the Viera. People wanted a beast race, we got one.
Now that we got what we asked for, people are complaining about not getting a gender.

Watch, we'll get both genders and now people will complain about lore. Then it will devolved into another Gender Politic discussion.
A western issue in a Japanese game

When people asked for Viera, it was because we wanted to see how the team would make the males. The original Viera request thread constantly asked for them. We didn't really get both, we got half of both races. The people who'll complain about the lore are those using it as an excuse to not add them already.

[SoulEchelon]

Except that: A) The Final Fantasy worlds are not connected. Changing a race in one does not do anything for the other: See: Moogles, who have not appeared the same in one FF to the next.

Actually, a number of Final Fantasy worlds ARE directly connected. FF7 is connected to FFX in fact. FF Tactics is connected to FF XII as well. Ivalice itself is connected to FFXIV, seeing as we just had 3 raids steeped in Ivalician lore. We even get to fight alongside Ramza and the gang for the final battle. As one who 100%'d FF Tactics back on the PS1, let me tell you - that was one hell of a fangasm. Couple of years back we had an event that connected FFXIII to FFXIV by way of Lightning herself appearing here, and we'll soon be finding ourselves connected to FFXV. Oh, and Garlean technology? FF6. Sorry but either the worlds themselves are the same (FFT+FFXII) or there is something connecting them in a multiverse-like web where races look similar, but may or may not have differing names and societies.

B) Koji's explicitly said that any lore is from the PoV of whoever says it, and NPCs can be wrong. Even the Encyclopedia Eorzea is written "in-character" in case it needs to be retconned later. See: The Acheron/Phlegethon debacle.

....Okay? That gives them an out to change things if needbe. Understandable, and makes sense in an MMO where lore may or may not need to be changed to accommodate current or future events. If you're trying to connect that with them changing the lore for male Viera, then see my last answer to your post.

C) Sakaguchi has no say in the company since he "resigned," Viera were a creation of Matsuno (with Akihiko Yoshida) and he's denied any involvement with this decision. And he wrote the RtI scenario.

Hence why I stated "This is pure speculation".

D) Yoshida said "lore" and later it came out that lore wasn't even in the decision-making process. And the Viera as they exist in XIV could have any other lore. In fact, the one they have could still support males.

I never said lore was part of the decision-making process. I was speaking directly to the person I quoted - explaining the differences between FFXIV's lore and Viera's. If you had read any further, you would've seen that I'm for both races having both genders, which means I'm for their FFXIV lore being changed to accommodate.

[WhiteArchmage]

Actually, a number of Final Fantasy worlds ARE directly connected. FF7 is connected to FFX in fact. FF Tactics is connected to FF XII as well. Ivalice itself is connected to FFXIV, seeing as we just had 3 raids steeped in Ivalician lore. We even get to fight alongside Ramza and the gang for the final battle. As one who 100%'d FF Tactics back on the PS1, let me tell you - that was one hell of a fangasm. Couple of years back we had an event that connected FFXIII to FFXIV by way of Lightning herself appearing here, and we'll soon be finding ourselves connected to FFXV. Oh, and Garlean technology? FF6. Sorry but either the worlds themselves are the same (FFT+FFXII) or there is something connecting them in a multiverse-like web where races look similar, but may or may not have differing names and societies.

FF7 was connected to X without the input of the 7 team, it was a retconned thing in the Ultimania. XIV is not connected to Ivalice, this was disproven by Matsuno himself on his Twitter (why not rant about how Ashe and Rassler are twins in XIV?), The Ivalice Alliance games are the only ones connected between themselves. XIII was only alluded due to nods, but isn't actually connected (Another dimension, was the excuse), Are you seriously trying to say that because the Garleans use tech that's cosmetically similar to 6 that they're connected?

Now: Ivalice Alliance are games set in the world/region of Ivalice. These include: FFT, FFTA, FFTA2, FFXII, FFXII: RW, Vagrant Story. XIV is not part of the Ivalice Alliance.

....Okay? That gives them an out to change things if need be. Understandable, and makes sense in an MMO where lore may or may not need to be changed to accommodate current or future events. If you're trying to connect that with them changing the lore for male Viera, then see my last answer to your post.

I never said lore was part of the decision-making process. I was speaking directly to the person I quoted - explaining the differences between FFXIV's lore and Viera's. If you had read any further, you would've seen that I'm for both races having both genders, which means I'm for their FFXIV lore being changed to accommodate.

The point is that by going "I'm a writer so X" and then going off on tangents about how they can't change this aspect of the Lore (while ignoring that it actually WAS changed and these are not the same Viera from Ivalice) is beyond pedantic, and this is from another writer.

Citation Needed. Not calling you wrong, Id just love to see a Quote.
And people who disregard the lore, don't respect the Franchise

This Thread

Im for viera race ( will be viera if added ) AND more customization in same time
Seeing how boys want rabbit clothes , they want be a viera male too i guess

I truly want Viera in FFXIV, however i would only want the mature, ferocious, and graceful warrior race. The idea of the their male counter part being physically smaller (as a reverse variant of AuRa would be acceptable). As "cute" as a child like race would be, the issues with having a child like form makes to many issues to be worth it.

In the first 2 pages, not gonna go delving for more just to make a point but mine asking for bunny men is around there. I also take offense to that whole "Don't respect the Franchise" deal because then you're saying the devs themselves don't respect it.

[SoulEchelon]

Jesus Christ do people love putting words in my mouth.

FF7 was connected to X without the input of the 7 team, it was a retconned thing in the Ultimania. XIV is not connected to Ivalice, this was disproven by Matsuno himself on his Twitter (why not rant about how Ashe and Rassler are twins in XIV?), The Ivalice Alliance games are the only ones connected between themselves. XIII was only alluded due to nods, but isn't actually connected (Another dimension, was the excuse), Are you seriously trying to say that because the Garleans use tech that's cosmetically similar to 6 that they're connected?

https://youtu.be/BA1gwFKq7u0?t=251 It's 100% confirmed. Straight from the horse's mouth. As for everything else, please notice how I stated SPECIFICALLY that certain WORLDS are the same, while others are simply CONNECTED. The fact that Ivalice shows up in multiple Final Fantasies means said Final Fantasies are connected. That also means Garlean technology being an obvious throwback/connection to FF6. It's even named Magitek. That is a connection, whether you believe it or not. That's one of the foundations of the whole Final Fantasy series - these connections between each world that define them as part of the Final Fantasy multiverse. If there were zero connections, we would not see Ivalice in FFXIV. We would not see moogles in every FF. we would not see chocobos in all of them either. I'm really not sure how much more I can explain this to you.

The point is that by going "I'm a writer so X" and then going off on tangents about how they can't change this aspect of the Lore (while ignoring that it actually WAS changed and these are not the same Viera from Ivalice) is beyond pedantic, and this is from another writer.

Well gee, didn't know saying my profession would make people think I'm a snob. That's what I get for trying to explain my point of view I guess! Also, you definitely did not read my post, as I stated later on within it that I would be happy to see both races have both genders, which means changing XIV's lore about them. Nowhere at all did I state in any of my posts in this whole entire forum that they absolutely can not change Viera lore - only that at most it could be potentially hard, and at least it explains their reasoning for not having male viera. Look up my posts. I don't have many of them.

[WhiteArchmage]

Jesus Christ do people love putting words in my mouth.



https://youtu.be/BA1gwFKq7u0?t=251 It's 100% confirmed. Straight from the horse's mouth. As for everything else, please notice how I stated SPECIFICALLY that certain WORLDS are the same, while others are simply CONNECTED. The fact that Ivalice shows up in multiple Final Fantasies means said Final Fantasies are connected. That also means Garlean technology being an obvious throwback/connection to FF6. It's even named Magitek. That is a connection, whether you believe it or not. That's one of the foundations of the whole Final Fantasy series - these connections between each world that define them as part of the Final Fantasy multiverse. If there were zero connections, we would not see Ivalice in FFXIV. We would not see moogles in every FF. we would not see chocobos in all of them either. I'm really not sure how much more I can explain this to you.

First off, that's why I said retconned. The Ultimania eventually said "Shinra's descendants moved to another planet and became the ShinRa corporation in FF7", so Kitase was being partly comical and mostly going with "Sure, let's go with that." Connections may be the wrong word there since they're actually references: Shiva in V is not the same as in VI, VII, VIII, etc. Moogles don't share the same design between one FF and the next, among other things. Dissidia does a better job actually connecting the games, but it's still iffy if the events of the Dissidia games canonically happened for the Warriors or not.

Well gee, didn't know saying my profession would make people think I'm a snob. That's what I get for trying to explain my point of view I guess! Also, you definitely did not read my post, as I stated later on within it that I would be happy to see both races have both genders, which means changing XIV's lore about them. Nowhere at all did I state in any of my posts in this whole entire forum that they absolutely can not change Viera lore - only that at most it could be potentially hard, and at least it explains their reasoning for not having male viera. Look up my posts. I don't have many of them.

On this I will actually apologize because many others HAVE been crying "But Lore!" and trying to hide behind Matsuno (who washed his hands off this) or the already flimsy Lore in-game, while ignoring that Viera lore in XIV borrows heavily from Miqo'te Keeper of the Moon, XII lore being more ambiguous by simply stating that males and females live in separate villages, and we never explore the entirety of Golmore Jungle (We needed Fran to guide us to Eryut Village in the first place, for example). I do agree that if XIV feels the need to retcon the current Lore for their Viera (Vis in the First Shard), it's their game to do so, and I should probably not be surfing the Forums already cranky <.<

[SoulEchelon]

snip

I'll admit I was gearing up for a nerdrage rebuttal, but we seemed to have found some common ground finally. When it comes to "Connections" I speak more of the fact that there are very similar themes, peoples, and societies in the Final Fantasy games, which is the backbone of the series. I didn't mean Garlemald was from FF6 or anything like that of course. Just that the technology on showcase means that these two worlds have a...well, connection. I can't really think of another word for it. But they aren't the same world. Like perhaps the same world but in a different dimension? Which, when you think of Dissidia and other nods towards dimensional/universal travel in this game series, it doesn't sound very far fetched. I feel Squeenix is specifically keeping this vague though just to stoke the fires of mystery among the community. But then you think about the Omega raids and the Crystal Tower and the Shards and Lightning in a Miqo'te outfit and just....oof.

Anyways I digress. I accept the apology and frankly I generally agree with your assessment. I think wires just got crossed and words misread. TL;DR of my thoughts is: I'm all for both Male Viera and Female Hrothgar, however I also take lore into the equation. Lore can always change, but I'd rather it not be shoehorned in just because the players want it - especially when it's as established as Viera lore is in FF. If we're gonna get bunny boys, I wanna know why. I want to see what made them leave their forests to join society like their female counterparts. Hell, give me a questline in game explaining it or something. I'd love that.

Although, that makes me curious. How do they explain no female Hrothgar? They're obviously Ronso (Their alternate name in the new shard we're going to is Ronso if I remember correctly), so where are the ladies? Guess we'll find out.

[Melichoir]

It's not "bad lore" simply because you say it is. Like, that line itself triggers me, as I'm a writer that has enough lore behind my stories to fill a book shelf. Lore isn't "made up tomfoolery". It's the foundation of a story and its universe. Days, weeks, months, years, decades can be spent on creating the lore of a single world. Your statement is a spit in the face to everyone who has the creativity and determination to create such things, and I'm gonna stop this particular part of my post before I lose restraint get reported.

Pretty much "Im a writer, therefore I know things" snobbery. Get off the high horse. People have opinions, particularly if they think that the reasoning is lacking. Its not a spit in anyone's face.

Ok, lets get to this then:

Anyways, comparing Viera lore to FFXIV's lore is like comparing an elderly person to a child. Viera have been in Final Fantasy's lore for decades, and that race has been in multiple final fantasy games - all of which had no male Viera. The drawings seen of them were purely conceptual. No one actually knows what they look like, as they have never, ever, ever been seen. Not even the developers know what they look like.

This is irrelevant. FFXIV is not Tactics, 11, or any other ff game. The ff games are only vaguely related, and even then its not really by intention (more of a "What if" idea by fans that the devs kinda adopted.) The only point to argue is what the Lore is in FFXIV. And in this case, it is very very minimal. So much so that it is extremely easy to write male viera into the game. There is no crucial story point that says they cant be in the game. No crux of a major plot development.

All of what you stated about FFXIV's lore has been in....FFXIV and nowhere else. Such lore can be easily changed and easily modified. It's not set in stone, it's evolving, and it's directly governed by FFXIV's dev team. Viera however, aren't as simple, and introducing the male version of that race would be far bigger to the overarching narrative that is Final Fantasy than you might seem to think. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they would probably need direct permission from Final Fantasy's creator himself, Hironobu Sakaguchi, to do such a thing. That's speculation of course, but I highly doubt the FFXIV team would be able to implement male viera without a higher up saying they can.

This is an overselling of a point. As I said above, the lore on male viera is minimal, and is not connected to any major plot or world building exercise. A 'call to arms' sub plot would be more than sufficient given what limited lore is available in FFXIV. Any other lore from any other game is irrelevant, unless youre arguing that to know Viera as a race, you needed to play every other game that has them. This is like saying to read this one book, you needed to read 4 other books that are only loosely connected cause it was written by the same author and nothing more.

At the end of the day, these things aren't as simple as people seem to think it is. I'd be more than happy to see male Viera and even happier to see female Hrothgar (especially since those are actually a thing). What they chose to do was to try and make everyone happy with the resources they had. People wanted a beastial race as well as the Viera. Initial clamorings for Viera was NOT for male Viera, but for the female ones. In fact, they had initially wanted just the Hrothgar being the final race, but ended up replacing the female Hrothgar with Viera instead. Whether that choice was a good or bad one is up for debate. Some are fine with it, others obviously aren't. Personally I would have rather had the female Hrothgar, but I'm not going to scream bloody murder about it. Guess that's just me.

Again, the issue is youre overselling this. Its not as hard as youre portraying it. We can all agree that genderlocking is probably not what people want, but lets not defend the devs reasoning with really poorly done lore in the context of ffxiv. We wanna be frank, then lets have the devs say "Just didnt have the time and we thought people would prefer this more." Not a mouthful of "Muh Lore" shenanigans.

*edit: God my post was a mess...