Gender Locks Have Revealed the Worst in Players.

[J-Reyno]

lore on vierra goes back to ff12. they had a village of all females. its highly unlikely that bunny men were erased by yoshida with this in mind.

also, not really sexist. they already have effiminite men, and therevis no indication vierra males would be effiminate.

I don't think they would be (or need to be) effeminate. It's more of an issue, specifically, with the dev team having a hangup regarding boys with bunny ears.

Seriously though, it's like I've said before regarding Yoshi's "having a rabbit male might be kind of weird" comment. This, along with the men of the dev team (the men, specifically, as stated by Yoshi himself) actually refusing to work on the bunny outfit for male characters because it made them "uncomfortable". They had to ask female members of the team to work on it, resulting in it taking longer. They made the women do the work because the men straight up refused. How wild is that?

Let's really unpack that; as others have said, we do already have skimp options for males in the game. Why is there an issue creating a skimpy variation of the bunny outfit for men? It's because, as Yoshi stated before, bunny boys are "weird" for them. You'd think they'd just make them somewhat buff bunny boys or something, but this is obviously a hangup for the dev team.

Bunny women and girls with bunny ears have long been something of a feminine sex symbol, or a symbol of femininity in general. For them it's uncomfortable to put boys in bunny ears due to the longtime associations. It's not like I think the dev team is evil, but I do think they conform to a trend which has its basis in casual, societal sexism.

They are under no obligation to give players everything they want, but it deserves to be called out for what it is.

[TarynH]

This, along with the men of the dev team (the men, specifically, as stated by Yoshi himself) actually refusing to work on the bunny outfit for male characters because it made them "uncomfortable". They had to ask female members of the team to work on it, resulting in it taking longer. They made the women do the work because the men straight up refused. How wild is that?

I actually think they would've been more comfortable working on it, had they actually made what the majority of people were asking for. Most, from what I saw, wanted a unique male version of the bunny suit. Like a Chippendales type thing. Instead, they went with the female version slapped on males (likely from misunderstanding). Which, btw, I have seen maybe twice since they added them. And it was only in Eureka. Obviously it was not what the majority of people wanted, and I'd be interested to know how many male characters actually glamour it.

Still, it's not "backwards" to respect other cultures' societal norms. You wouldn't, for instance, go into a Muslim country and tell the women to take their hajib off. The more progressive action is to work with and try to understand other cultures and why they might feel uncomfortable putting something in their IP. Instead of insulting them, calling for boycotts, or storming out of the room like a spoiled child. But I don't want to "white knight" here, so...

[J-Reyno]

I actually think they would've been more comfortable working on it, had they actually made what the majority of people were asking for. Most, from what I saw, wanted a unique male version of the bunny suit. Like a Chippendales type thing. Instead, they went with the female version slapped on males (likely from misunderstanding). Which, btw, I have seen maybe twice since they added them. And it was only in Eureka. Obviously it was not what the majority of people wanted, and I'd be interested to know how many male characters actually glamour it.

I see it daily, but you can also see that I'm currently on Mateus. There are a ton of people here annnnd well, you see a lot. LOL. I didn't really care for the implementation of the outfit myself, but 1) I wouldn't have worn it no matter what it looked like and 2) I think it's fine that some enjoy it for what it is. Different strokes and all that. There are definitely outfits that see even less wear, I'll tell you that, and frankly there really shouldn't be a discussion about whether or not it should be included. Distribute the assets equally, even if you have to negotiate the design to better compliment male/female form.

Still, it's not "backwards" to respect other cultures' societal norms. You wouldn't, for instance, go into a Muslim country and tell the women to take their hajib off. The more progressive action is to work with and try to understand other cultures and why they might feel uncomfortable putting something in their IP. Instead of insulting them, calling for boycotts, or storming out of the room like a spoiled child. But I don't want to "white knight" here, so...

I would also not tell women from Muslim nations that they have to wear them, either. One thing people need to understand is that societal norms can be bad. It wasn't so long ago that racial discrimination in America was a widely accepted societal norm. Jim Crow laws were enforced until 1965, and not everywhere in the world is as socially progressive. Where is the empathy for the people living within these cultures who don't conform to these outdated societal norms, or are otherwise forced to do so to the detriment of their qualify of life? People around the world are still fighting tooth and nail for every scrap of equality they can get, even in America. It's an endless fight for what amounts to common decency. People are tired.

Having said that, I agree that we can work together respectfully. But respect goes both ways. They already know we don't like genderlocked races and they've told us before that we won't have them. Between that and showing us concept art of male Viera, their decision came out of left field and then they refused to even address it for over a month until the final fanfest. This was not handled well on their end. Queue disappointment and outrage.

[TarynH]

I would also not tell women from Muslim nations that they have to wear them, either. One thing people need to understand is that societal norms can be bad.

Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

And I'm not saying you did either, because I honestly haven't read all of your posts. Just responded to the ones you responded to. But I'm seeing some pretty nasty stuff being said about not just SE, but the individuals in the company. That's simply not right. If this issue is going to be addressed, it will never be addressed properly in this tone. It's spiteful to a company that has tried to be accommodating.

I give SE the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they need time to address the gender thing. Maybe they need to change the lore, or even create new lore. We have an entirely different world to go to, where the lore might be completely different. And maybe that's how we "unlock" them.

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

[J-Reyno]

Of course you wouldn't. That's the whole point. Societal norms can be bad, but nobody has the right to tell another culture, let alone a person, what they should be comfortable with. Those developers are allowed to be uncomfortable if it makes them uncomfortable. They passed it off to someone that handled the issue though. Maybe the women didn't feel completely comfortable with it either. But it's not on us to judge any of them for it, nor should they be vilified for how they feel.

I'm going to strongly disagree and say that you can absolutely judge people for how they feel, especially when they go out of their way to make it known. You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

Maybe you feel like in this specific instance it's not something they should be judged for, but in that case we'd again have to disagree. Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

No, I haven't said anything particularly nasty about them. I think FFXIV's team is talented and has delivered fantastic content. It's not like I think they should lose their jobs. I'm just calling a spade a spade. The hypermasculine/hyperfeminine genderlocked races, the bunny outfit fiasco, glamour disparity, and even the extreme sexual dimorphism of the Au Ra. The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

Either way, I'll sit back and see what happens. But if nothing changes, then I'll accept that's what the devs wishes were for this game. It is, after all, their project. We pay to play their game, not to have ultimate say in what they do. Feedback and constructive criticism is one thing, but dictating what they do is absolutely the wrong approach.

Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

[TarynH]

You're saying that it's okay for people to have discriminatory views and that they shouldn't be judged for it? Because I can think of several examples where this doesn't hold up at all.

I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. It's easy to say someone is sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. The harder part is understanding why you might perceive them that way, or why they might very well be that way. The mind is a fascinating thing. Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex. It's just as easy to see societal pressures sway someone's thinking as well in this fashion.

Maybe they didn't feel comfortable making female clothing on male characters, because it's not something they are familiar with. I personally would be uncomfortable programming a jockstrap for instance. Not because I'm sexist, but because I've never worn one. You can say they make skimpy clothing all the time, but it's not all overtly feminine on men. We'd never know any of that though, because nobody asked each individual male developer what they were thinking during the process.

Instead, they all get slapped with a generalized label of being sexist. Every single last one of them, by you and others. Maybe that had nothing to do with it at all. There are many reasons someone could feel uncomfortable in that situation. And the issue did get resolved by the company, so you can't label the company as sexist. They pushed until they got someone on it. Honestly that situation is a moot point now, because it was handled.

Is any of it wrong? That depends on who you ask. True tolerance is understanding the differences that make each individual unique. You shouldn't rush to judgment of one another, nor slap a label on them before you truly know the individual. And even then, you should respect their human right to have their own opinions and world view. This has become a new thing in Western society, to call someone a racist when they disagree with a certain politician's policies, for instance. Or to call someone a sexist because they hired a man instead of a woman. It doesn't have to be based on anything factual other than the pure baseline for those definitions.

Calling a spade a spade, for instance, is a very intolerant thing to do. It's closely synonymous with judging a book by the cover. It's rude, impolite, and usually does not take into consideration anyone's personal feelings, past, or views. Basing an entire "sexist" claim on one individual instance, is quite frankly intolerant. But, I don't want to call a spade a spade here, so I'm going to assume you have a lot more evidence to back up your claim of persistent sexism by these developers.

Should they not expect criticism based on the views and values of the culture to which they are marketing and selling their product?

No, I'm not saying they shouldn't expect criticism, nor feedback. I'm saying there is a more productive, less emotional way to do it. Coming at them in a thread-opening post screaming "homophobes" or "sexists" doesn't help anything. Neither does immediately calling out anyone who might disagree as "white knights." This is when most people stop listening and grab the popcorn. Why? Because it's so silly to even contemplate the company is either. Individuals might have their own views inside the company, but in whole, they have gone against their societal norms many times to cater just to players of this game.

The dev team has a trend of conforming to ideals which find their basis in casual, societal sexism.

And this is also fine. A Japanese company made a game based on many cultures, with their cultural fundamentals, and have tried to make it work globally. That is very hard to do, if you ask me. They can't simply cater to Japanese culture, and they can't simply cater to Western culture. They have to figure out ways constantly to work with both, not to mention draw on historical cultures for inspiration.

Can we help them understand Western culture more? Sure. But not screaming "sexist" at them every time they ask (or don't ask) for feedback. I'm sure they think we're a bunch of loudmouth idiots by now, and I would have to agree. We've done nothing as a whole to disprove that.

And you know what? Some people are still okay with what they've given us. That's fine! But others feels like they can and should do better. This is also fine! For me it's a "I love what you do, but this is problematic so let's talk about it" kind of situation.

And again, nothing wrong with that. However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental. You're saying your mind is already made up in the matter, so what is there to discuss? Why should the other side feel obligated? They have to come in battle-ready with evidence to prove they're not sexist now, before they can even discuss the next topic.

Thing is, we don't have the power to dictate what they do. The ball is completely in their court and they are free to do as they please while we tell them how we feel about it.

And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying there won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

[J-Reyno]

I'm saying it's okay for people to have different points of view, and I can think of several examples where someone would be justified feeling the way they do. [...] Just think of someone suffering from abuse, and then realize why they don't trust the opposite sex.

If a new person joins the team I lead at my workplace and confides that they're afraid of all black men because they grew up in a bad urban neighborhood where crime was high, I'm going to tell them that I'm sorry for their experiences but they're going to have to make sure they don't let their bias, no matter the reason for it, get in the way of doing their job properly and treating everyone equally regardless of skin color. To do otherwise would be racism.

We are adults that work through our struggles rather than use our negative experiences as an excuse to be unfair to others.

This is a non-negotiable position.

However, you're not saying what you quote there, when you come out holding the "sexist" card. That actually serves to shutdown discourse when you come in pre-judgmental.

This is not a "card" and is not a buzzword used to artificially inflate the value of my argument. This was not a sudden judgment made just because of male Viera. It has been the topic of discussion in the past. It may not have been important to you, so maybe you weren't aware, but we have talked about these ideas before with regard to unnecessarily genderlocked clothing, the bunny outfit in particular, the dimorphism of the Au Ra, and even the genderlocked races back in 1.0. This has just been the most egregious offense to date, especially because we thought we'd moved past this offense in particular.

I get it, it's not a pleasant thing to be called. However, it's also not a pleasant thing to be on the receiving end of.

And once again, more power to you, or anyone telling SE how they feel. But there is a right way, and a wrong way to do it. Not saying their won't be some emotion. Not saying we won't misstep or say something wrong. We're all human, and that's how we learn and grow. Just at least show an inkling of civility. We need to strive to work with each other better, and not be so blinded by our brash sentiments. No matter how we feel on the inside. Like another thread said: Step back and breathe.

And again, I appreciate the respectful responses but we will disagree. My criticism is not brash or blind. They are assertive without being aggressive and are, as of yet, undisputed. At best you have only given reasons for sexist societal conformity and explained that I am supposed to be understanding.

Which, to be fair, I am. I understand why they did it. It just needs to change. They need to address their internal values or, at the very least, recognize the culture to which they are marketing and adjust.