Give us girly boys and manly women! Bigger issues than bunny boys?

[Nuna]

Well, on the other hand, NA people should understand that their political gender matters sound like a whim in some other parts of the world. It is not because a little part of activists have decided it is a world matter it really is.

What will happen when minority in a minority will starts to rise (we already see that with the last polemic against Will Smith who wouldn't be black enough)?

People should understand they will not solve the problem like this, it is all the opposite : they will even make rise a grudge against them while they want to become banal. They were pretty much more banal when I was younger and more pleasant too. Now they kinda sound hysterical.

They center their lives around their gender. So when other people don't take their gender as seriously as they do it hurts them. Therapists need to help them out a bit with some self responsibility.

[RenofManyAlts]

Thank you for this post, OP. The message of "women as sexy, lingerie-wearing prey animals and men as bestial predators in leather and pelts" was greatly disappointing. SE has been wonderful about digging in with nuance in so many cases -- I had hoped for better from them, especially with "lore" as the reason given. Feeling like I was being told by the creators of the world I spend so much time in that there is no place for my self-expression really hurt.

[Anzaman]

Even more girly males? Nah, I'm OK - might as well go and select female and think that it's dude at this point.

[Ayer2015]

You can make any character feminine just via glamours with any race. I dont see the point in making a race that is overtly androgynous by default, otherwise there is no point have making two genders for it. What I also find odd is how many people seem to find the existing races "girly", which I would be very interested in knowing what made them develop that opinion. Lastly, what prompted people to assume Male Viera would have been feminine looking? After seeing the existing Viera, it's clear they would have simply been Hyur with bunny ears.

[ScarboroughFairy]

Thank you for this post, OP. The message of "women as sexy, lingerie-wearing prey animals and men as bestial predators in leather and pelts" was greatly disappointing. SE has been wonderful about digging in with nuance in so many cases -- I had hoped for better from them, especially with "lore" as the reason given. Feeling like I was being told by the creators of the world I spend so much time in that there is no place for my self-expression really hurt.

Can someone seriously explain to me what's wrong with women conforming with the typical archetype of beauty, grace, and sensuality and men conforming with strength, ferocity, and fortitude? I've asked this question a few times already and no one has given me a straight answer.

Every post I've replied to with this sort of tone and context makes it seem like it's somehow wrong for women to embrace what's generally seen as "feminine" and wrong for men to embrace something typically seen as "masculine". We have several representations of various archetypes for each of the races in this game. Highlander and Roe women are aggressive and quite imposing in stature, carrying themselves in ways that would be more attributed to men while still being gorgeous. Lala and Miquo'te males project the inverse to this. Also, Viera women are not prey animals if you know anything about the lore. Viera don't fuck around, male or females.

So what's your angle here? Is any form of masculinity toxic? Is it wrong to attribute femininity to women? Are you slutshaming the basic Viera race attire?

[Ayer2015]

Can someone seriously explain to me what's wrong with women conforming with the typical archetype of beauty, grace, and sensuality and men conforming with strength, ferocity, and fortitude? I've asked this question a few times already and no one has given me a straight answer.

Every post I've replied to with this sort of tone and context makes it seem like it's somehow wrong for women to embrace what's generally seen as "feminine" and wrong for men to embrace something typically seen as "masculine". We have several representations of various archetypes for each of the races in this game. Highlander and Roe women are aggressive and quite imposing in stature, carrying themselves in ways that would be more attributed to men while still being gorgeous. Lala and Miquo'te males project the inverse to this. Also, Viera women are not prey animals if you know anything about the lore. Viera don't fuck around, male or females.

So what's your angle here? Is any form of masculinity toxic? Is it wrong to attribute femininity to women? Are you slutshaming the basic Viera race attire?

Without going into too much detail, the characteristics you are outlining are all culturally based. There are plenty of documentaries out there, you outside the realm of gender identity which seems to always be the topic of discussion these days, which analyse social archetypes in modern western society. Keep in mind what is deemed masculine and feminine does in fact vary by culture and over history.

[Iscah]

Can someone seriously explain to me what's wrong with women conforming with the typical archetype of beauty, grace, and sensuality and men conforming with strength, ferocity, and fortitude? I've asked this question a few times already and no one has given me a straight answer.

I think the issue might not be just those things, but that they're the only options given, repeatedly.

Au Ra couldn't all be fierce dragon-people; they had to get split into tiny delicate females (not that physically different to the pre-existing Midlander and Miqo'te characters) and big tough males.

Viera are elegant females with no pre-existing male counterpart, but a matching male design would be weird. Here's a hulking beastman instead - you'll like that better, won't you?


I feel like the original five races had a good mix of different body types, but instead of the three additional races filling new niches, they've stayed close to the same pattern each time.

(Hrothgar also bug me from a lore standpoint, far more than male Viera - it will certainly be awkward for any future players going through ARR's plot with this very beastlike character, hearing about how the beastmen are our enemies and are feared and hated throughout the city-states...)

[ScarboroughFairy]

That's fair enough. I suppose it would suffice to say that the outrage over SE's apparent "blatant shoehorning of gender norms" is unfounded, for one, since the outrage itself is based on a perception wholly ignorant and, to a degree, inconsiderate of and in regards to the culture the game originated from.

People of the opinion I'm replying to seem like they're trying to inject their Western viewpoint somewhere it shouldn't be.

I think the issue might not be just those things, but that they're the only options given, repeatedly.

Au Ra couldn't all be fierce dragon-people; they had to get split into tiny delicate females (not that physically different to the pre-existing Midlander and Miqo'te characters) and big tough males.

Viera are elegant females with no pre-existing male counterpart, but a matching male design would be weird. Here's a hulking beastman instead - you'll like that better, won't you?


I feel like the original five races had a good mix of different body types, but instead of the three additional races filling new niches, they've stayed close to the same pattern each time.

To that last point, I don't see an issue with that given that we already have representation of several different archetypes. Au Ra is the only notable example of extreme sexual dimorphism. Now does that necessarily mean that we need another race to display the inverse? I don't believe so.

(Hrothgar also bug me from a lore standpoint, far more than male Viera - it will certainly be awkward for any future players going through ARR's plot with this very beastlike character, hearing about how the beastmen are our enemies and are feared and hated throughout the city-states...)

I might agree with you on the point with the Hrothgar, but I'm withholding my opinion until ShB provides a justification for how they might not be considered beastmen.

[Iscah]

To that last point, I don't see an issue with that given that we already have representation of several different archetypes. Au Ra is the only notable example of extreme sexual dimorphism. Now does that necessarily mean that we need another race to display the inverse? I don't believe so.

While it's true that Au Ra are the only single race with extreme sexual dimorphism, that's where this "pair of locked-gender characters" thing gets messy - because logicallly they're separate races, but functionally they're a matched pair of new character types, and the second-out-of-two "race expansions" that gives us a new dainty female and hulking male character.

Somewhere out there in the world there are male Viera and female Hrothgar, but if we can't play as them then it doesn't matter how closely they match the physique of their gendered counterparts, because it's still not an option being added for players.



The strangest thing out of all of this is that the male Viera from the much-posted concept art seems to fit the "strong male" archetype anyway. Hrothgar just seem like they turned it up to eleven to get away from a possibly-feminine-in-any-way counterpart to Viera.



From one view I can see that we were never going to get two whole races, but implementing these split races instead of a single (highly requested!) whole race seems like they're just setting themselves up for massive backlash. Of course people are going to want the "missing half" of each race, even if it was never intended to be available to them.

If we'd only gotten a single race, nobody would be complaining "why didn't you give us two?"



...well, okay, this is the Internet. Someone probably would have complained anyway. But not the majority like this.

[Binahel]

If you're feeling dysphoria due to this game then please go to therapy. Please op, there is something seriously wrong.

it's not aboyt dysphoria, it's about sexism.

now go back to school please and read a bit of history. thank you.