Revelations from Keynote III (2019)

[Cilia]

I don't know, a lot can happen in 2000 years. *looks at human history*

Geographically. We already know the cultures are very different as a result of the divergence.

So it comes back to the big question of, "Why does it matter now?" If the devs didn't want to do male Viera because they didn't want to, then they should have stated that instead of trying to hide behind a flimsy excuse that falls apart when one thinks about it for more than a minute.

Let's be honest - even if they outright said they didn't want to make male Viera because they find the notion distasteful (or whatever), people would still be up in arms over the sexism. Hell, it might be even worse of a shitstorm if they said that. No matter what reason they give there will still be people out for blood over the very fact male Viera aren't playable - if they have a lore reason it makes in-universe sense, at least.

... saw this coming a mile away when Return to Ivalice was announced...

At the risk of phrasing it too bluntly, this may be the closest I've seen anyone come to just saying, "In my opinion it looks hypocritical to to disregard the lore for fifty other kinds of PC-vanity only to suddenly invoke it as defense for denying character creation options that don't seem to with fit Japan's more comfortably traditional gender norms." without making it weird and/or being insulting. *raises glass*

That's what I'm pinning it on as well. Despite what some of the media it puts out might have you believe, Japanese society is still pretty conservative. While I was a bit surprised at the lack of male Viera because I knew this would happen if it came to that, I'm... not... at the same time.

I'm not going to deny that it's sexist and hypocritical, but... have they said lore is why the male Viera aren't playable? Have they given any lore on the Hrothgar, let alone explanation as to why the females (apparently) aren't playable? Have they said male Viera won't be playable? Etc etc etc. It's not over until the fat lady sings...

[SannaR]

I'm so glad we got more history time line points and that they at least hinted at us getting some answers about the whole picture. The Allagans ended like 5,000 years ago right? How long did they last for? I think it's the 1st's version of mr Tia and not be our Tia. I do wonder how the class/job quests will be handled as many have it where we get sent to the new area or we get introduced to some one who knows a person who needs our skills in the new area. Like obviously we'll be able to go back to the source whenever we want as there is the reconstruction of Ishgard that they said would be happening throughout the expansion.

[KylePearlsand]

Geographically. We already know the cultures are very different as a result of the divergence.



Let's be honest - even if they outright said they didn't want to make male Viera because they find the notion distasteful (or whatever), people would still be up in arms over the sexism. Hell, it might be even worse of a shitstorm if they said that. No matter what reason they give there will still be people out for blood over the very fact male Viera aren't playable - if they have a lore reason it makes in-universe sense, at least.

... saw this coming a mile away when Return to Ivalice was announced...



That's what I'm pinning it on as well. Despite what some of the media it puts out might have you believe, Japanese society is still pretty conservative. While I was a bit surprised at the lack of male Viera because I knew this would happen if it came to that, I'm... not... at the same time.

I'm not going to deny that it's sexist and hypocritical, but... have they said lore is why the male Viera aren't playable? Have they given any lore on the Hrothgar, let alone explanation as to why the females (apparently) aren't playable? Have they said male Viera won't be playable? Etc etc etc. It's not over until the fat lady sings...

In the case of the Hrothgar, it could be a case that Females simply do not exist similar to how Galka were in FFXI. Of course this is just speculation as we have a reason why there is no male Viera from the storyteller but we know next to nothing about the Hrothgar/Ronso.

[Wyssahtyn]

At the risk of phrasing it too bluntly, this may be the closest I've seen anyone come to just saying, "In my opinion it looks hypocritical to to disregard the lore for fifty other kinds of PC-vanity only to suddenly invoke it as defense for denying character creation options that don't seem to with fit Japan's more comfortably traditional gender norms." without making it weird and/or being insulting. <raises glass>

I'll... take that as a compliment?

Let's be honest - even if they outright said they didn't want to make male Viera because they find the notion distasteful (or whatever), people would still be up in arms over the sexism. Hell, it might be even worse of a shitstorm if they said that. No matter what reason they give there will still be people out for blood over the very fact male Viera aren't playable - if they have a lore reason it makes in-universe sense, at least.

... saw this coming a mile away when Return to Ivalice was announced...


I'm not going to deny that it's sexist and hypocritical, but... have they said lore is why the male Viera aren't playable? Have they given any lore on the Hrothgar, let alone explanation as to why the females (apparently) aren't playable? Have they said male Viera won't be playable? Etc etc etc. It's not over until the fat lady sings...

Sure the community would be up in arms about it, but at least the devs would have been honest about it. Honestly they should have nipped it in the bud back at the EU fanfest when Yoshi-P got asked whether male Viera was going to be a thing instead of being coy about it. Would have had an entire month or so for the discontent to die down. As for the lore, it was stated as the reason during the English commentary. It might have just been an offhand comment by Koji Fox, but seeing as how he's supposed to be translating the event (so far as I know), it's not unreasonable to believe that that is the actual reason.

Really the only reason I care about this whole debacle (other than finding genderlocking to be asinine in general) is that they tried to use lore as a reason for genderlocking in the first place when it just falls apart so quickly. Lack of consistency is cause for concern.

[MrThinker]

Well, he wasn't meant to be translating it, but commentating on it, which is pretty hard to do if the audience doesn't know what is being said. So he was providing translations, but they weren't word for word like at EU and NA.

[Cilia]

In the case of the Hrothgar, it could be a case that Females simply do not exist similar to how Galka were in FFXI. Of course this is just speculation as we have a reason why there is no male Viera from the storyteller but we know next to nothing about the Hrothgar/Ronso.

It's a definite possibility, but given they don't appear to be anything more than man-cats and there's no real information available on the Hrothgar, I think it's safe to assume they ah, reproduce the traditional way, which would necessitate females.

Honestly I was expecting something Norse with that name...

Sure the community would be up in arms about it, but at least the devs would have been honest about it. Honestly they should have nipped it in the bud back at the EU fanfest when Yoshi-P got asked whether male Viera was going to be a thing instead of being coy about it. Would have had an entire month or so for the discontent to die down. As for the lore, it was stated as the reason during the English commentary. It might have just been an offhand comment by Koji Fox, but seeing as how he's supposed to be translating the event (so far as I know), it's not unreasonable to believe that that is the actual reason.

So... an inevitable shitstorm occurred later rather than sooner and you're mad your expectations were betrayed.

I'm not a fan of gender-locking races either, but the developers do have creative control over the world, and if they choose to implement them with attendant lore they are free to do so. Whatever consequences come of that (like this shitstorm) are theirs to deal with.

[polyphonica]

As for the lore, it was stated as the reason during the English commentary. It might have just been an offhand comment by Koji Fox, but seeing as how he's supposed to be translating the event (so far as I know), it's not unreasonable to believe that that is the actual reason.

Really the only reason I care about this whole debacle (other than finding genderlocking to be asinine in general) is that they tried to use lore as a reason for genderlocking in the first place when it just falls apart so quickly. Lack of consistency is cause for concern.

I don't think he was making that comment at all to state that it was the reason, but more like it's an in-lore rationalization for why they're remaining rare (non-playable). I'm quite sure that at no point during the development process they were ever so bound by the lore to feel like they "could not" have added male Viera if they wanted to, and if they decide to add them in the future there can easily be an in-lore justification/rationalization for that as well ("as a result of <plot developments>, now even the men are leaving the forest..."). They also pointed out specifically that male Viera and female Hrothgar will not be playable but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

In the end, it definitely is not the development team's official reason, and I don't think he was trying to pitch it that way. I'd say Koji's comment was just to point out that it's not inconsistent with the established lore... which is obviously why they made the lore that way in the first place. The official development reason is more like "some people wanted Viera, other people wanted a more beastly race, so we tried to do both and as a result did one gender of each." Of course people will argue that this was a bad decision and they should have just picked one or the other and gone all the way... but it's way too late to change course now. The hope is basically that the fill out the other respective gender and make it playable in a later patch/expansion.

[Wyssahtyn]

So... an inevitable shitstorm occurred later rather than sooner and you're mad your expectations were betrayed.

I'm not a fan of gender-locking races either, but the developers do have creative control over the world, and if they choose to implement them with attendant lore they are free to do so. Whatever consequences come of that (like this shitstorm) are theirs to deal with.

You may have started on your post before my edit was made, but I have no strong feelings one way or the other about Viera or Hrothgar outside of believing genderlocking to be stupid. So no expectations were betrayed because I had none, and I am most assuredly not angry about it. And while the developers may have creative control over their world, that does not somehow restrict me from questioning their actions.

I don't think he was making that comment at all to state that it was the reason, but more like it's an in-lore rationalization for why they're remaining rare (non-playable). I'm quite sure that at no point during the development process they were ever so bound by the lore to feel like they "could not" have added male Viera if they wanted to, and if they decide to add them in the future there can easily be an in-lore justification/rationalization for that as well ("as a result of <plot developments>, now even the men are leaving the forest..."). They also pointed out specifically that male Viera and female Hrothgar will not be playable but it doesn't mean they don't exist.

There already exists a justification given by the Wandering Dramaturge, in that recent generations of Viera have had members leaving and living outside the Wood. Also, for a rationalisation, it falls flat, due to the examples I gave in my first post in this thread with Miqo'te males, especially Keepers. And at no point did I say that male Viera not exist, given that they plainly do. Nor did I comment on Hrothgar outside questioning how a race that looks more bestial than Au Ra is supposed to be well received in Eorzea when one of the two Au Ra we were introduced to at first hid her appearance because it was believed it wouldn't be well received, and the other had his tribe massacred to the last. Of course, that last one's something of a rhetorical question given the lack of reaction to PC Au Ra in general in ARR and HW content.

[Bright-Flower]

On the topic of Viera, I don't buy that this is for lore reasons. A. Male Miqo'te were in the same boat. B. They changed tons of other stuff when adapting Ivalice into FF XIV. Including the ending to the Tactics part of the story, and the order of the games they adapted. In the old games, FF XII happened long before Tactics, but this is reversed in FF XIV. There are also numerous other changes. So why would male viera be the one sacred cow of Ivalice lore that the FFXIV team isn't allowed to change? Makes no sense to me.

That aside, I'm curious to see how we go to the First. I really, really, REALLY hope that it's a RP friendly way. That it's not just 'the one WoL goes to the First' and that there's room for other people to be traveling there in the story. Because having an entire expansion worth of content where lore wise only one person goes to would be super annoying. It's already annoying how restrictive some jobs like white mage are for RP, and this would be a huge step in the wrong direction.

[Yuyuka3]

I don't know, a lot can happen in 2000 years. *looks at human history*

You cannot compare human history with the geological timescale, though. In geology, we tend to measure time in steps of a few 1000 years. Like, everything below that is considered the blink of an eye, and while great events, like earthquakes, can change a lot... it's not enough to make any meaningful difference, really. 2000 years is laughable. Also, let me tell you, studying Geology really skews your sense of time, haha xD