Please no more Eureka!

[Kalise]

I think this would be a particularly bland way to combine the content.

It would be consistent with previous Relics though.

Where the lore was always "We need this really rare item" then it happens that Rowena, the person that has everything for sale, has the item and is willing to sell it.

It also makes things fair. If you had to purchase with Tomestones, every item, then you'd be limited to your weekly cap irregardless of which type of content you do. Which means everyone is gated the same way and as such, won't feel "Pressured" into doing the "Most efficient" content.

Which is one of the main issues with more freedom of content, is that people don't like feeling pressured into grinding the most efficient stuff, which is why there are so many complaints about 2.0/3.0 light farms because people "Spammed Trials/Tam-Tara" as it was the most efficient way of farming the light in a short amount of time.

I just really think that the relic questline could easily cater to both crowds while maintaining a consistent structure and lore.

Again, tomestone purchases are consistent. Rowena has items, you purchase items, you give items to Gerolt (Who's in debt with Rowena), Gerolt makes you a fancy weapon (To pay off his debt).

This has been consistent since HW (In ARR he wasn't in debt with Rowena, at least not heavily enough to be coerced into working on your weapon. He just wanted to make his kettles to pay her back)

There won't be two separate paths. There might be a combination of different options, new and old, but separate and equal I highly doubt it.

Note that most of my suggestion actually had a single path. One in which you buy items with Tomestones.

How you earn those Tomestones are up to you.

As far as my side comment about the stats, well, it's no different to how ARR required you to gather up a bunch of Materia to put in. How you got those materia and which materia you used was up to you. Similar thing for Crystal Sands in HW where you had a plethora of items that could be traded in for the sand, from Scrips, to Leve loot, to raid items or stuff bought with poetics or even GC seals.

As such, it's not unprecedented for multiple ways to progress a single step. It's only this Eureka relic that has a singular path. Where the ONLY way to progress it is by farming Fates or Farming Light/Logos in the relevant zones.

So, something simple, like the items you use to put the stats on can also include content specific stats such as Elemental Bonus in Eureka or extra Equipment levels in HoH is not out of the question. As it would simply be a similar thing to how ARR's materia step worked, where you just need to apply a certain amount of X, Y or Z where X is found in Dungeons/Trials/Raids, Y is found in Eureka and Z is found in HoH and where Y grants additional Elemental Bonus in Eureka and Z grants an additional bonus in HoH.

Again, it's not hard to think of things like this, because, as it happens, both relics before SB literally worked this way, wherein you COULD progress a majority of their steps in different ways.

People like to complain about being "Shoehorned into farming old content" from ARR/HW relics but as it happened, specified duties actually made up a minority of their grinds. The majority of their grind was about gathering Tomestones and trading them to Rowena.

Even some of the non-specified duties could be bypassed by just instead spending Tomestones (Such as HW's Singing Clusters or ARR's Alexandrite which either required a daily level 50/60 Roulette or purchase via Tomestones)

How you got these tomestones, the game didn't care. Where you went to farm your Light, the game didn't care.

The fact that an argument against allowing progression on the Relic from outside of "Eureka" content is "They won't do multiple paths to the same item" just boggles the mind when literally, before Eureka, that was exactly the case, outside of like 2-3 steps of each Relic.

[Reynhart]

The fact that an argument against allowing progression on the Relic from outside of "Eureka" content is "They won't do multiple paths to the same item" just boggles the mind when literally, before Eureka, that was exactly the case, outside of like 2-3 steps of each Relic.

Have you considered that's because they specifically stopped doing that that they won't do it again ? And you can embellish it as much as you want, but farming tomestones is not "multiple paths", it's just tome farming, the things you do for almost every valuable piece of gear since the very beginning of ARR.

[Kalise]

Have you considered that's because they specifically stopped doing that that they won't do it again ?

Have you considered that's because they specifically wanted to push this content that has failed on both of their previous attempts?

Just because they stopped doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they will never do it again. Just as much as it can mean they will never do it again.

There exists a precedent were they allowed multiple ways to progress a Relic. Claiming outright that it will never happen again, without any proof such as a definite statement by the Developers is asinine.

And you can embellish it as much as you want, but farming tomestones is not "multiple paths", it's just tome farming, the things you do for almost every valuable piece of gear since the very beginning of ARR.

Yeah, and it's "multiple paths" because you can farm tomes from multiple sources.

You're not stuck doing one single type of content. You can mix things up, or stick to a preferred type of content.

I also mentioned that it was a single path if you actually bothered to read my post. A single path that can be worked on in numerous ways. Including, but not exclusively, Eureka (Or Eureka-like content).

But alas, despite all your claims, Eureka is only worth it because the Relic is exclusive to it... At least, that is what is being suggested by the vehement that you try and defend Relic being a Eureka exclusive and try and find reasons why previous Relic design choices (I.e. Multiple ways to work towards the same goal, be it grinding Tomestones, Crystal Sands or even the Crafted Items in HW's relic that can be obtained via Grand Company Seals these days) cannot function.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it needs to happen.

Sure.

It's just low effort on the part of the developers. Given that Tomestones are consistently obtained through various means in end-game content. Even Eureka gives you plenty of Tomestones for participating in FATEs.

They could make the item(s) you farm different, potentially even having a system similar to HW's Crystal Sands where unique items from many sources get traded for the same item to upgrade the relic.

It's just easier to make it the currency that already exists in spades and is naturally put into the content that people would be farming.

I dislike the weekly gating in the first place, so this is not a compelling argument to me.

Sure, I get that.

It's merely a point that can be used to counter one of the arguments that gets brought up with talk of "Multiple ways to progress the Relic" wherein people think it's going to mean stuff like farming Tam-Tara for hours to gain Light because that's the most efficient for them so that's what they feel pressured to do.

You can gate people by time so they all progress at the same rate. At least, initially, you can always later in the expansion then change the Tomestones required for earlier steps to the uncapped variant.

The other aspect of this, is that it also means you can make the Relic weapon more relevant as an actual weapon throughout an expansion, rather than only being notable when complete after all of the content has already been out for a while. Due to spending an actually relevant resource to upgrade it.

Of course, you can always do the half measure such as having the Relic tomestones being a different set of capped ones than those used by casuals to purchase their gear upgrades. So you have a Genesis cap and then a unique set of tomestones for relic with their own cap (That makes sense).

Again, this time-gating only serves a purpose if trying to prevent people from feeling like they "Have" to grind content they dislike to keep up with other people working on the Relic.

[Reynhart]

Have you considered that's because they specifically wanted to push this content that has failed on both of their previous attempts?

No, because I actually read what they said and that their purpose was to create a content dedicated to the relic, and not put the relic there as an afterthough like so many people claim.

Just because they stopped doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they will never do it again. Just as much as it can mean they will never do it again.

If I were you, I wouldn't help my hopes high for now, because they said that putting the relic as a side reward for basic content was not very interesting and had reached its limits.

But alas, despite all your claims, Eureka is only worth it because the Relic is exclusive to it...

As is any content in this game, only worth it because of its reward...What a shock !

At least, that is what is being suggested by the vehement that you try and defend Relic being a Eureka exclusive and try and find reasons why previous Relic design choices (I.e. Multiple ways to work towards the same goal, be it grinding Tomestones, Crystal Sands or even the Crafted Items in HW's relic that can be obtained via Grand Company Seals these days) cannot function.

That's the thing, I'm not the one saying past iterations were becoming a problem. Yoshi-P is. And you're still only advocating to put the weapon away from Eureka just because you don't like the content, not because you care about people having option to obtain the gear they like.

[Kalise]

No, because I actually read what they said and that their purpose was to create a content dedicated to the relic, and not put the relic there as an afterthough like so many people claim.

Have you ever considered that maybe they wanted to create content dedicated to the relic so as to be able push this twice failed content by attaching it to some other niche content that already had a following?

Given that not everything that the devs say ends up being congruent with what we actually end up receiving. An example was when they said that BLU was a job designed for solo play and unsuitable for parties and we get a BLU that is literally the most party dependent job in the game.

If I were you, I wouldn't help my hopes high for now, because they said that putting the relic as a side reward for basic content was not very interesting and had reached its limits.

Which is a shame. Especially since in Eureka the relic was a side-reward for basic content, given it was merely just FATE farming and Light/Logos farming. Just with new janky colour wheel and stuff!

As is any content in this game, only worth it because of its reward...What a shock !

Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

That's the thing, I'm not the one saying past iterations were becoming a problem. Yoshi-P is. And you're still only advocating to put the weapon away from Eureka just because you don't like the content, not because you care about people having option to obtain the gear they like.

You're the one currently in this thread defending Relic exclusivity. Yoshi-P is not.

Also, while the basis for my argument stems from me not liking the content, the fact remains that I'm actually pushing for inclusivity.

Unlike you who has already admitted that you only cared about the Relic because it was tied to content you liked. Thus are using that fact to try and keep the Relic exclusive to your preferred content.

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content (In addition I'm also advocating for MORE REWARDS for you to get via your preferred content), but then OTHER people (Yes, myself included), would also be able to gain the Relic through their preferred content.

Which would ultimately mean, fewer Leechers within content due to more people actively choosing to be in the particular content rather than being forced there by Relic grinds (As there are plenty of examples of leechers in both Eureka as well as in Trials when they were mandatory for Relic progress)

So, again, while you're advocating from an entirely selfish point of view, because the Relic happens to be exclusive to your preferred content. I'm advocating for a new system that doesn't force specific content, this is notably different to previous relics which did have specific content in some stages. Meaning that all players of the game can grind out for their Relic and don't have to go leech from a particular type of content.

This is in addition to also advocating that your preferred content gets additional rewards in exchange for the "End Goal" no longer being just the Relic. Even if I personally would never end up attaining these rewards due to not liking the content.

[Lambdafish]

Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

It's not, but saying this misses the point that was made extremely clear in the dev interview that Reynhart is referencing (I would highly suggest giving it a read if you haven't because it renders a lot of what you are saying factually incorrect). Eureka was designed as content to house the relic, relic was not an afterthought reward to entice people to do Eureka. Talking about other rewards having the same draw is irrelevant, because it was planned to be relic from the outset. Yes, other rewards would draw people to Eureka, the ozma mount has been a popular carrot, and I have seen a tonne of people glamming the hydatos armor. These are all rewards that take time and effort to get, and are not relic.

Eureka doesn't NEED Relic, but it was concepted with relic in mind. That was the devs conscious choice, both can survive without the other, especially now that the foundations of Eureka have been established, but the core of Eureka is about relic.

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content (In addition I'm also advocating for MORE REWARDS for you to get via your preferred content), but then OTHER people (Yes, myself included), would also be able to gain the Relic through their preferred content.

I'm going to be honest, reasoning aside, your idea of how relic should be handled is extremely bland. I never finished the 3.X relic because I just got tired of the monotony and it just wasn't a fun experience to run content I had already done on repeat while watching netflix on the other screen. Eureka on the other hand, while it did have that monotony, gave me new content to engage in, with a lot more content like logograms, lockboxes and other rewards making the journey to completing the relic feel so much more rewarding and feel a lot shorter.

If you can somehow replicate that feeling that Eureka achieved in your idea, sure I'd be ok with that, but what you currently have is "go tomestone grind" which people are already sick of after 6 years of doing nothing but that.

[Kalise]

It's not, but saying this misses the point that was made extremely clear in the dev interview that Reynhart is referencing (I would highly suggest giving it a read if you haven't because it renders a lot of what you are saying factually incorrect). Eureka was designed as content to house the relic, relic was not an afterthought reward to entice people to do Eureka.

Yeah, but I can also point to interviews and evidence of devs saying BLU is a solo job, not suitable for parties.

Yet, their implementation of it speaks contrary to all of their interviews.

Like, even the fact that within the content to house the relic, the relic is a side-quest. The main story in Eureka is Krile's quests about figuring out how the island moved across the world, what the deal is with her grandfather that WoL is having flashbacks about, what that hooded dude is doing that WoL keeps seeing.

With every now and then, there being a small aside where she goes "Oh yeah, Gerolt wanted to talk to you about something" to which he starts to be... Some sort of comedic relief? Where he goes on about "You need to go find... Stuff. Then I can make a strong weapon. Maybe. I dunno lel xD Look, I have a kettle!"

Talking about other rewards having the same draw is irrelevant, because it was planned to be relic from the outset.

It is not irrelevant. Since, in case you were not aware, this thread was created entirely about FUTURE "Eureka" type content.

Literally the first line of the OP is:

Having heard they plan something like Eureka in 5.0 i just had to throw my 2 cents in.

All these discussions around "Eureka" are not talking about retro-actively changing Eureka itself, but instead talking about future "Eureka" content.

Eureka doesn't NEED Relic, but it was concepted with relic in mind. That was the devs conscious choice, both can survive without the other, especially now that the foundations of Eureka have been established, but the core of Eureka is about relic.

This literally just supports my argument.

If both pieces of content can thrive without one another, and the foundations of Eureka content that people don't all hate as is the case with Diadem. Then there exists the possibility to then separate the Relic from "Eureka" content and allow multiple ways to progress on the Relic, just like in previous ones, while allowing "Eureka" content to thrive off its own merit and rewards.

Which is what people are asking for. Not "Let us grind for the Physeos Weapons from Duties"

Physeos Weapons can stay exclusive to Eureka. That's fine. The argument being made is that some people wish that FUTURE Relics are not exclusive to the "Eureka" type content.

I'm going to be honest, reasoning aside, your idea of how relic should be handled is extremely bland.

I'm sure someone could come up with a more interesting solution if they weren't trying to argue with people who feel that Relics should remain exclusive to their preferred content.

Tome grind, is not the best alternative, however, it's a very easy example of a solution to allow multiple avenues to work towards the same Relic, so no-one feels forced into running content they dislike for the large grind that is a Relic weapon.

Like, if I was to try and think of a more interesting solution, I'd probably come up with something more akin to 3.X's Crystal Sand. Where you had multiple different items from different pieces of content that you could go out and farm in order to obtain the Crystal Sands.

Take an idea like that, and flesh it out with some creativity, such as giving bonuses to said item collection rate when doing the most recent Dungeons/Trials/Eureka zones/Raids.

Eureka on the other hand, while it did have that monotony, gave me new content to engage in, with a lot more content like logograms, lockboxes and other rewards making the journey to completing the relic feel so much more rewarding and feel a lot shorter.

The reason that Eureka relic felt shorter, is because it was. It has far fewer steps than previous relics as well as most of the steps also able to gather materials necessary for additional Relics on other jobs (I.e. If you're doing FATE Trains for the Boss items you need, you will end up getting excess Crystals/Light that you use on other Relics)

Though, this isn't to say that you wouldn't still be able to have these feelings if the Relic became progressable through multiple ways, since, given that one of the things being advocated is that you're still able to progress it through "Eureka" content it means you CAN still do this "New" content and farm up your lockboxes and Logos while you work on your Relic.

Just, other people can, if they prefer, then also farm Duties if they wished. That's the thing here, I'm advocating for multiple avenues so that people can pick their preferred way to grind. I'm not advocating to make "Eureka" content no longer being an option to work on the Relic, merely that it's not the ONLY way to work on the Relic.

I really love when people rather build their conspiracy theory than taking information for what they are.

When information is contrary to implementation, I'm partial to second guess said information.

Strange because I'm pretty sure every other job needs a party to clear even the low level dungeons, and are pretty encouraged to be in a group just to reach max level quickly.

I'm pretty sure that no other job needs to party in order to complete their JOB QUESTS.

Nor does any other job need to party in order to GET THEIR SKILLS.

Other jobs are "Encouraged" to group to level. And need a party to clear low level dungeons at level.

But they're not REQUIRED. Other jobs can level just fine alone, they learn all their skills alone, all of their job quests are easily completed alone. For soloing low level dungeons, other jobs are in the same boat as BLU, which is that they need to outlevel them in order to do so.

Hence, BLU is the most party orientated job in the game, since some of the features of the job that every other job can do solo, BLU requires a party to accomplish.

Sure, FFXIV has so many content focused on chaining mobs, exploring zones, choosing specifics targets for specific rewards, dropping in and out of parties...

Chaining mobs existed before they added in alternate ways to gain experience that were much, much better.

Exploring zones... Is literally what the Sightseeing Log is all about.

Choosing specific targets for specific rewards... You mean like Hunts?

Dropping in and out of parties... Sounds like Rank A and S Hunts. Also, sounds a lot like old FATE Train experience grinds that existed before they made crap like Duties and PotD so much more efficient.

Yes, the relic is the only reward to justify the relic content. i.e, I wouldn't grind for hours to just get a mount. Exactly like mounts, titles and achievements would probably not keep Savage alive for very long.

Interesting that you've changed your tune on this over time.

Used to be that you exclaimed that the Relic didn't need to be the end reward for Eureka just that it made sense to put grind reward at the end of grind content...

Now it's "Relic of GTFO"

Also, again, it's not as if I'm suggesting removing the ability to grind "Eureka" content for the Relic. In fact, I'm suggesting ADDING more stuff to grind for in "Eureka" content in addition to being able to grind for the Relic.

There's no reason for the relic to be the only weapon to be spread out of its dedicated content.

Except for the fact that in previous Relics you were able to progress on it with multiple types of content?

Except for the fact that unlike Alpha or Empyrean weapons, the Relic is a large grind throughout an entire expansion?

Silly me for claiming I wouldn't do a content I don't like. It's so much smarter to punish oneself when playing a video game that's supposed to be "fun".

Yet you defend with zeal the notion that people whom have grown accustom to working on the Relic with content they like when asking for the Relic to once again being able to be worked on with content they like are somehow not allowed this?

Even if their idea still has literally no impact on you being able to do content you like in order to access the Relic that you don't care about unless it's conveniently placed into content you like (While these people have cared about the Relic even when they had to do content they didn't like, some have even forced their way through Eureka to get the Relic despite not liking that content)

No, trying to keep the Relic exclusive to...its dedicated content. The main difference is that if I didn't like Eureka, I would still advocate to keep it here, because making the relic a glorified tome weapon is boring.

Yeah, sure. It's easy to play the Martyr when it happens that it's not the case that you even need to be in the situation where your argument would be pushing for a reward you care about being in content you don't care about.

I mean, you've already stated that 1) You only cared about the Relic because it was in content you liked and 2) That you like Eureka.

So, claiming that you're somehow a saint because if the Relic (Which you don't care about) was in content you didn't care about that you'd still be pushing for that exclusivity doesn't mean a great deal.

Well, it would because it would spread relic grinders into separate content, making less people do each of them. The fact that con-Eureka players went in Eureka provided criticism (more constructive than "Wa wa delete") and definitely helped improve the last installments. If those people would be able to skip it, they would have said nothing.

Do you have proof that Con-Eureka players provided constructive feedback that lead to the improvements? That it wasn't just Pro-Eureka players that was providing that feedback?

Also, "Spreading grinders into separate content" suggests that you believe that Dungeons, Trials and Raids are dead because all the Relic Grinders are in Eureka...

Or is it that you believe that Eureka is poor enough content that without the Con-Eureka players forcing themselves into the content purely for the Relic that "Eureka" content would be dead?

The thread of spreading grinders too thinly only has merit if, "Eureka" content was poorly received so that only a tiny number of players actually enjoyed it or if there existed additional types of "Overworld-esk" grind locations that was similar to "Eureka" content that was relevant to grinding the Relic.

If however, alternate means of grinding was duties... Then how would it be much different from now, where duty grinders grind duties and Eureka grinders grind Eureka?

You know, except for their being fewer leechers in Eureka that are AFK waiting for NM spawns instead of actually helping spawn them, or grouping with people to chain enemies/farm light/logos...

[Reynhart]

Have you ever considered that maybe they wanted to create content dedicated to the relic so as to be able push this twice failed content by attaching it to some other niche content that already had a following?

I really love when people rather build their conspiracy theory than taking information for what they are.

BLU that is literally the most party dependent job in the game.

Strange because I'm pretty sure every other job needs a party to clear even the low level dungeons, and are pretty encouraged to be in a group just to reach max level quickly.

Especially since in Eureka the relic was a side-reward for basic content, given it was merely just FATE farming and Light/Logos farming.

Sure, FFXIV has so many content focused on chaining mobs, exploring zones, choosing specifics targets for specific rewards, dropping in and out of parties...

Yes, but you're making out that only the RELIC is a reward enough to justify Eureka and that no-other reward in the entire game would have the same draw.

Yes, the relic is the only reward to justify the relic content. i.e, I wouldn't grind for hours to just get a mount. Exactly like mounts, titles and achievements would probably not keep Savage alive for very long.

You're the one currently in this thread defending Relic exclusivity. Yoshi-P is not.

That's what "making a content dedicated to the relic means".

Also, while the basis for my argument stems from me not liking the content, the fact remains that I'm actually pushing for inclusivity.

No, you're pushing for a bypass. You would be pushing for inclusivity is you asked the same concept for other weapons too. After all, maybe some people want a nice looking Alpha weapon but don't like Savage. Or an Empyrean weapon but they find HoH boring. There's no reason for the relic to be the only weapon to be spread out of its dedicated content.

Unlike you who has already admitted that you only cared about the Relic because it was tied to content you liked.

Silly me for claiming I wouldn't do a content I don't like. It's so much smarter to punish oneself when playing a video game that's supposed to be "fun".

Thus are using that fact to try and keep the Relic exclusive to your preferred content.

No, trying to keep the Relic exclusive to...its dedicated content. The main difference is that if I didn't like Eureka, I would still advocate to keep it here, because making the relic a glorified tome weapon is boring.

I'm trying to get the Relic back to being more widely available, so that not only would it have literally no impact on you whatsoever, as you'd still be able to gain the Relic through your preferred content

Well, it would because it would spread relic grinders into separate content, making less people do each of them. The fact that con-Eureka players went in Eureka provided criticism (more constructive than "Wa wa delete") and definitely helped improve the last installments. If those people would be able to skip it, they would have said nothing.