Need to address the Eureka in the room.

[purgatori]

Let's see now, we have dangerous mobs that you can't just pass by them without fearing you'd get killed by them if you're not careful. Requiring you to be in a group to do any kind of activity, which is why it's an MMO. The interaction between players when they group together to spawn an NM and the NM train. Even if it's grindy, it's still less grindy than the previous relic style and there are lots of people who actually got their relics in each zone in 1-2 days (except Pagos, cuz it sucks). No flying (that's my personal opinion but it's not like it's a deal breaker or anything to me) because flying limits how the zones are made in order for them to take into account what you can see when you're flying really high (perhaps after dropping PS3 and 32bit support we would see some improvements in ShB zones). The logos actions can create a very fun experience (like reflect farming). Having a different leveling system, which makes you explore the zone carefully and not just go wild just because everything is at your level and also, once you do it, you don't have to repeat that step for all other relics (unlike the previous style). I can cap my tome stones easily. And of course BA.

Is it a perfect content? I wouldn't say so. There are things I hated about it like not being able to level sync with your party to be able to efficiently help your low level friends. Being in an instanced zone. The quests with Krile are boring and only each couple of levels (at least they should add more side quests that require group work).

The things I'm neutral about and doesn't bother me nor do I care about are deleveling when you die, and the mount restriction (although it gives big benefit to multi seat mounts and also creates a nice atmosphere when high levels offer low levels a ride to help them pass dangerous places to NMs).

MMO ≠ grouping. When people conflate MMOs with grouping, this is less an accurate reflection of what an MMO is and more a statement about someone's preferred way of playing an MMO. There's nothing wrong with this preference, of course, unless that person thinks that because they exclusively enjoy group content, then everyone else should be forced into grouping whether they enjoy it or not. Unfortunately, this is usually the case when someone is advancing some form of the "because it's an MMO" argument.

For me, the hallmark of overworld/open world content is that it can be enjoyed by an extremely diverse range of players; whereas, to my mind at least, instanced content is conducive to more narrowly-focused content that appeals to smaller subsets of the community. Now I guess whether Eureka is overworld content could be debated (though I think if it's not, then perhaps it should have been), but it certainly does not do a good job of catering to a diverse range of players—if that intention was even remotely present during its development.

[Chalbee]

the social aspect of the content...people organizing with each other, giving hints, suggestions, directions, and back-up help because they all expect you to do the same...

Interesting, these are precisely the reasons I hate Eureka. I don't really like talking to people, and you cannot do Eureka effectively unless you do. On the one hand, people might offer advice, but what's really annoying is that while 50-60% of people will offer advice, 100% of people seem to expect everyone to know everything right out of the gate unless you join within the first 48 hours of patch. Grinding tomes is annoying, but it's familiar and doesn't force you to interact with other people when you don't feel like it.

[Alucard135]

MMO ≠ grouping. When people conflate MMOs with grouping, this is less an accurate reflection of what an MMO is and more a statement about someone's preferred way of playing an MMO. There's nothing wrong with this preference, of course, unless that person thinks that because they exclusively enjoy group content, then everyone else should be forced into grouping whether they enjoy it or not. Unfortunately, this is usually the case when someone is advancing some form of the "because it's an MMO" argument.

For me, the hallmark of overworld/open world content is that it can be enjoyed by an extremely diverse range of players; whereas, to my mind at least, instanced content is conducive to more narrowly-focused content that appeals to smaller subsets of the community. Now I guess whether Eureka is overworld content could be debated (though I think if it's not, then perhaps it should have been), but it certainly does not do a good job of catering to a diverse range of players—if that intention was even remotely present during its development.

When I used the word group, it was to denote interaction between players to fulfill a certain goal (be it a common goal they aim for or against each other as in PVP), hence the multiplayer term. Since the interaction is done by a massive number of players, it becomes an MMO. Can you call a game an MMO if you have millions of players that play at the same time but with very small to no interaction between them? Take dark souls for example. You have thousands of players online, but you only interact with a couple of them from time to time or even solo your way through it. Can we call it an MMO? There are tons of mobile games that have thousands of players playing at the same time. But you only interact with one or two at a time (like farmville).

Eureka was designed to be a group content. Meaning you'll need a certain number of people to do certain activities there. If Eureka was designed to also accommodate solo play, you will kill the group play side. The open world that you say is enjoyed by extremely diverse range of players is a perfect example of that. It's a barren land in some zones now (imagine Zalera....inside joke for Aether DC). You rarely see group activities going on in the open world maps unless it's a hunt or a fate like Ixion. Why? because there's really no need to have any groups in order to do any content in the open world. You can easily solo 90% of the contents there. What's the point of a massive world in an MMO if it's empty and almost everyone is just doing instanced duties.

[Tlachtga]

I'm all for more Eureka if they stop attempting to capture the essence of MMOs 20 years ago. Grinding mobs for hours on end worked when spell cast times were 9s long and you generally had time to chat in between attacks. It doesn't work with a 2.5s GCD.

I don't really care for the social aspect either. I have a group of friends I play most content with, and when they're not available (and the FC people aren't) I prefer to play solo. (I also really dislike crowded areas in games....but w/e personal issue).

Solo Eureka is miserable pre-Pyros and I know "hurr durr that's not how its supposed to be played1!1!!" I don't care. It's incredibly unfun and downright inefficient. Logograms massively helped with this, and they (or some other equivalent) should be included from the get-go. Not in the 3rd installment of it, after the longest most depressing section.

It's designed for groups and to hold a lot of people. I'm obviously in the minority here, so that's not gonna change. That's fine. I just want better options that don't completely gimp me. The challenge log was nice. A daily version would be nicer.

Mob design could use a change too. No more of these dumb auto > auto > untelegraphed buster > auto > telegraphed aoe > auto > auto trash mobs with ten times the HP they should have.

I know they can make interesting non-boss enemies, because they did in Heaven-on-High 81-90 and 91-100. You approached and pulled each enemy there with care and had to know its unique mechanics.

I saw a Jinba and I knew we had to burn before Allagan Meteor. I saw a Warrior Nuppepo and knew the tank had to have their back to a wall for the triple knockback. I saw a Mukai-inu and knew the Ram's Voice needed to be silenced or it'll likely kill any melee too slow to get out in time. I see basically any enemy in Eureka and its just "meh, another HP sponge"

The logograms are a nice addition, switching up the relatively dull gameplay of Eureka. It was nice being able to actually solo everything and even get Gold ratings in NMs alone. If they can somehow mix the HoH-type mobs (dangerous, but not overly tanky) with logograms (switching up XIVs slow combat) I feel like there could be a real winner there.

tl;dr: Less focus on capturing essence of old MMOs, more options for solo people, more interesting mobs like Heaven-On-High 81-100, less HP sponges, expand on logogram system = happy Tlala, and daily reminder that sleeping dragons that can OHKO you and exist solely to force you to arrive at your destination slower is one of the worst cases of game design I've seen and its about as fun as stepping on a plug.

[Derio]

There just needs to be alot more to do in the zones. More than just fate grind and kill mindless monsters. Create quests, certain objectives. Make it a living and breathing zone.

Levequests would have been great in Eureka for crystals, light, etc.

Crafting commissions would have added another layer in depth.

Underwater treasure hunting maps would have been great.( you could even add the bunnies)

Chain fates like how some of the open world fates are( chain fate is completing 1 fate results in another which results in a final boss fate).


There was just so much wasted potential with Eureka.

[Taebok]

Interesting, these are precisely the reasons I hate Eureka. I don't really like talking to people, and you cannot do Eureka effectively unless you do.

I went through Eureka and the only thing I ever typed was "LFG Bunnies/fates" upon entering the instance.
Beyond that I never talked to anyone and I did just fine.

[purgatori]

What's the point of a massive world in an MMO if it's empty and almost everyone is just doing instanced duties.

Well, that's certainly a broader definition of 'group' than I am accustomed to. And if one were to equate that definition with what it means for a game to be an MMO, then I have less issue with that, as I feel it encompasses both those players who do like to be in traditional groups, as well as those who like to work towards a common goal with other players, but not necessarily be in a party with them.

However, I also don't think an MMO would suddenly not become an MMO if it also had a large amount of content wherein there was very minimal interaction with other players. And while I don't think that Dark Souls could be construed as being an MMO, I think that if it were simply more 'massive,' it could potentially be made into one. To me, even interacting with an economy that is affected by other players counts as being a 'multiplayer' activity, so I really have no issue with the MMO definition so long as some minimal amount of multiplayer interaction is required of the players therein. Of course that's just my take on it: the primary appeal of an MMO has always been the 'Massive' part of that particular initialism, and also that the 'RPG' part is typically implied even when omitted from being printed in said initialism. For me, multiplayer counts for very little, and what keeps me coming back is that the content that my character can progress through is always being expanded. I really don't like it when I get to the point of having done all the things there are to do in games like Dragon's Dogma or Fallout: New Vegas; if those games were updated with new story content year after year, I doubt that I would bother with MMOs at all, to be honest.

I agree with you that there's no point to the open world if nobody is there participating in it, but I have serious doubts that this is because '90% of the contents' are soloable. I have only to point to the ever-populous zones of ESO, which are also at least 90% soloable. But what ESO's zones have over FFXIV's are a wealth of side-story/quest content, rewarding loot, and activities that remain relevant even at endgame. If I could progress towards a relic weapon by grinding FATEs/mobs in open world zones, and then joining up every now and then to take on a variety of world bosses, I would; but grouping for challenge logs is absolutely tedious, and not my idea of fun. The group play side could still be preserved---especially considering your definition of what it means to group---in that the bosses would still require player cooperation, but players would not have to organise and maintain groups just to engage in activities that should be relatively trivial for a solo player to engage in (as they were in the old school MMOs I used to play).

[Physic]

There just needs to be alot more to do in the zones. More than just fate grind and kill mindless monsters. Create quests, certain objectives. Make it a living and breathing zone.

Levequests would have been great in Eureka for crystals, light, etc.

Crafting commissions would have added another layer in depth.

Underwater treasure hunting maps would have been great.( you could even add the bunnies)

Chain fates like how some of the open world fates are( chain fate is completing 1 fate results in another which results in a final boss fate).


There was just so much wasted potential with Eureka.

levequests are complete trash. too easy too boring. crafting stuff dilutes the purpose of people in the zone. You want people filtered into an instance like this to have similar goals. crafting and gathering are solo activities, if 50% of people in the map arent there for combat, most of the combat related stuff will fail.

this isnt to say they shouldnt have crafting/gathering content, it just should not be a compelling part of an endgame combat instance, unless it somehow promotes people fighting something.

[Kalise]

You have thousands of players online, but you only interact with a couple of them from time to time or even solo your way through it. Can we call it an MMO?

Technically, you have games like Global Agenda that called themselves "MMO's" because it literally had a bunch of people standing around in a city-like "HUB" before queuing into small instances with 5-10 players.

That was their entire content. They still were called "MMO" because of the afking with a bunch of people around aspect

You rarely see group activities going on in the open world maps unless it's a hunt or a fate like Ixion. Why? because there's really no need to have any groups in order to do any content in the open world. You can easily solo 90% of the contents there.

No, that's not the reason why there's no group activities going on in the open world.

The reason why there's no group activities going on in the open world is because there's no rewards that are relevant in the open world outside Hunts and Ixion.

Literally, it's better for every single thing you can possibly get from the open world, to just spam duties while standing around in a city (Much like in Global Agenda )

If you take a look at the past of FFXIV, back when duty spamming was less rewarding, what happened? You'd see tons of people FATE Training for experience in the open world.

Why? Was it because the FATEs where not soloable at the time? No, it was because the rewards of grinding FATEs for experience was better than farming duties and teaming up with others made the farming more efficient.

THAT'S the issue at hand with content. For some reason, SE has been keeping Roulettes and Duty spam as the most effective way of earning experience, gear, tomes, seals and whatever else. I can only imagine because of their arbitrary decision to shoehorn duties into the MSQ so that people need to complete them somehow and thus need people to be queueing into roulettes to populate them (Such as the MSQ 8 mans)

As such it means that the overworld has no notable rewards, so there's no reason for anyone to actually group up to farm stuff.

Like, BLU created a reason for people to group in the overworld so you saw a bunch of BLU leveling parties because farming in a party > farming solo.

For everything else, it's pure crap.

Hopefully with the trust system, they'll be able to shift some focus away from Duty spam without affecting people trying to get through the duties for the MSQ. So they can put more emphasis onto overworld content, thus get more people farming FATEs or chaining enemies for experience (You know, exactly what Eureka is made out of)

[Laphael]

Open world activities

You can see the main problem with more activities in the open world at the beginning of every addon.
They had to make 3 instances per "open world zone" for SB to carry the burden of many players being there.
When Ixion spawned and everyone portet there, the servers just crashed. Thats why we have instanced Eureka with a limit of 144 players.

Would it be nice to have more activities in the open world? Yes, but we have to be realistic.