Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Shurrikhan]

While I understand you want a more magical melee class, the RDM is fundamentally a Disciple of Magic, and the addition of the melee finisher set is more just flair and flavor on top of our core spellcasting.

Okay, but... does it have to be? And ought it to be? Is RDM made more fun by having its sword be basically an ornament?

[Kalise]

Okay, but... does it have to be? And ought it to be? Is RDM made more fun by having its sword be basically an ornament?

Have to be? Probably. For balancing reasons. Otherwise they'd have to try and figure out how to give them the toughness of a melee without making its ranged too good with that toughness (Or something like that)

Ought to be? Arguable. Personally, I felt a little let down when RDM was touted as a Caster/Melee hybrid but then its gameplay was merely Caster with a melee burst CD (That, until level 50 is actually not worth using because its DPA is lower than your spells...)

Then there's also some other oddities, like at level 1 (Which is literally only relevant in PotD) RDM only has Riposte and no actual spell. Jolt is learned at level 2. Which would suggest some more melee focus. But alas, that is not the case and the class ends up feeling quite BLM-y as a result (Especially given how GCD's function with "Instant Casts" so you don't even feel like much of a spell slinger with rapid casts... Especially if you use a high SpS build on your BLM...)

[Archwizard]

Have to be? Probably. For balancing reasons. Otherwise they'd have to try and figure out how to give them the toughness of a melee without making its ranged too good with that toughness (Or something like that)

That's already a fault we have though. We spend more time in melee range than other casters and are less durable than BLMs, with only self-healing (which ideally we should rarely use -- and won't help us in the face of getting one-shot) as a saving grace in that regard. We can't even claim it's due to our advanced mobility allowing us to dodge skills they're encouraged to tank, since BLMs have as many teleports as we have movement skills!

[Shurrikhan]

That's already a fault we have though. We spend more time in melee range than other casters and are less durable than BLMs, with only self-healing (which ideally we should rarely use -- and won't help us in the face of getting one-shot) as a saving grace in that regard. We can't even claim it's due to our advanced mobility allowing us to dodge skills they're encouraged to tank, since BLMs have as many teleports as we have movement skills!

The movement skills are almost equally instantaneous, so what does that matter? Melee range, likewise, is only dangerous at infrequent and scripted intervals. So long as the melee burst can be delayed 1-3 GCDs, you're safe. And, it can be already. As 1.8 GCDs (since each melee GCD is only 3/5s of a pre-SpS GCD) is incredibly rarely enough to encounter a second melee-range threat, this is altogether irrelevant except to poor play.

[Archwizard]

The movement skills are almost equally instantaneous, so what does that matter?

I think you're missing the point of what I was saying - I wasn't complaining that BLMs have as many movement skills as we do or that we don't have enough.
I was pointing out that our primary defense is evasion via our enhanced mobility, yet we have examples of another caster class who not only has emergency evasion tools arguably on par with ours, but direct damage mitigation to boot, and whose rotation doesn't force them to move into hazardous proximity of their target.

Yes, we can heal, but we're casters. We're squishy. We can die if the boss looks at us funny, and our per-cast healing ain't that strong anyway.

As for being able to delay the melee, we only have the gap between reaching or exceeding 80 BM/WM and capping them, and I don't know about you, but I've encountered a lot of scenarios where I ended up getting 90/90+ before I could begin melee due to sheer luck, and couldn't delay melee further without overcapping or simply losing damage. And aside from that, I've encountered several scenarios where right as/after I charged into melee, the boss initiated some near-instant attack I didn't have any timer or choreography for.

So sure, while you're right in theory, practice shows something different.

[Kabooa]

I was pointing out that our primary defense is evasion via our enhanced mobility, yet we have examples of another caster class who not only has emergency evasion tools arguably on par with ours, but direct damage mitigation to boot, and whose rotation doesn't force them to move into hazardous proximity of their target.

Line dancing requires Black Mage be in all manner of positions, many of which are really !@#%ing hazardous, to maximize their damage.

And if the Black mage isn't pushing for damage, they are literally worthless to the party.

[Shurrikhan]

I think you're missing the point of what I was saying - I wasn't complaining that BLMs have as many movement skills as we do or that we don't have enough.
I was pointing out that our primary defense is evasion via our enhanced mobility, yet we have examples of another caster class who not only has emergency evasion tools arguably on par with ours, but direct damage mitigation to boot, and whose rotation doesn't force them to move into hazardous proximity of their target.

Yes, we can heal, but we're casters. We're squishy. We can die if the boss looks at us funny, and our per-cast healing ain't that strong anyway.

As for being able to delay the melee, we only have the gap between reaching or exceeding 80 BM/WM and capping them, and I don't know about you, but I've encountered a lot of scenarios where I ended up getting 90/90+ before I could begin melee due to sheer luck, and couldn't delay melee further without overcapping or simply losing damage. And aside from that, I've encountered several scenarios where right as/after I charged into melee, the boss initiated some near-instant attack I didn't have any timer or choreography for.

So sure, while you're right in theory, practice shows something different.

BLM movement to mitigate downtime is just as, if not more, complicated in most serious fights as that of RDM. Ever since the imbalanced mana exploit was removed, you've had 2-4 GCDs of flexibility in the timing of your melee phase (4 exact if in proc-excess). There is virtually no period of melee-only danger that cannot be avoided entirely with that flexibility. Your only -- and I'll admit, excessive -- inflexibility is in perfect immediacy/uptime of CaC and Displacement, which probably don't need potency to begin with.

No one is expecting you to use Vercure in serious content. You are not being balanced around it. Your survivability is not being balanced around it. It is being balanced around Dualcast, at the most, and everything else a RDM brings to the table.

[Archwizard]

Your only -- and I'll admit, excessive -- inflexibility is in perfect immediacy/uptime of CaC and Displacement, which probably don't need potency to begin with.

No one is expecting you to use Vercure in serious content. You are not being balanced around it. Your survivability is not being balanced around it. It is being balanced around Dualcast, at the most, and everything else a RDM brings to the table.

Then we're in agreement on those points. If Vercure isn't intended to be a basis for our survivability, then we have an opening for a survival tool.

[Dualgunner]

Ought to be? Arguable. Personally, I felt a little let down when RDM was touted as a Caster/Melee hybrid but then its gameplay was merely Caster with a melee burst CD (That, until level 50 is actually not worth using because its DPA is lower than your spells...)

Damage per Action? I mean, sure Enchanted Riposte is lower potency than even Jolt, but the 1.5s GCD on it makes it a stronger relative attack on its own than Veraero.

210/1.5= 140pps
310/2.43= 127.6pps

[Lauront]

Have to be? Probably. For balancing reasons. Otherwise they'd have to try and figure out how to give them the toughness of a melee without making its ranged too good with that toughness (Or something like that)

Ought to be? Arguable. Personally, I felt a little let down when RDM was touted as a Caster/Melee hybrid but then its gameplay was merely Caster with a melee burst CD (That, until level 50 is actually not worth using because its DPA is lower than your spells...)

Then there's also some other oddities, like at level 1 (Which is literally only relevant in PotD) RDM only has Riposte and no actual spell. Jolt is learned at level 2. Which would suggest some more melee focus. But alas, that is not the case and the class ends up feeling quite BLM-y as a result (Especially given how GCD's function with "Instant Casts" so you don't even feel like much of a spell slinger with rapid casts... Especially if you use a high SpS build on your BLM...)

They'd need to give it a pretty significant overhaul to allow for the melee phase to play more of a role, though, and I think they may be a bit leery of doing that. It's not unprecedented for them to do it for jobs, like HW gave more complex rotations to each job and they tried to fix broken jobs in SB (and will in 5.0 again), but RDM is perceived to be a success because it has a comparatively smooth playstyle. I'd like to see them take some risks, though, and that's not restricted to RDM.