Baldesion Arsenal Feedback

[Stanelis]

As for not being able to find PUGs now, as I said in my original post thats mostly due to the fact that pool of people who want to do the content but don't want to join a Discord for their personal reasons is too small to sustain a large PUG effort, in addition to the general attitude to BA being that it requires a premade to make any progres

People can very well both do runs as PUGS and with premades, especially considering it may be difficult to find a free instance with BA available for a 48 men group.

Yet even with taking this into account, it doesn't happen.

[Kuroka]

I'm starting to wonder, take away voice chat (discord etc.), call outs for mechanics, large premade groups, but have a common fixed strategy that the entire data centre obeys without question.

Thats what not working here at all. For example the placing of ABCD on seiryu here, some do (clockwise) ABCD like i prefer, some do ACDB or ABDC which is gettin annying if youre done it 30+ times on one way xD

Or the typical do a mechanic clockwhise like on Ozma back then - you would always encounter ppl insisting on doing it counterclockwise. Or on Cid now, the same, some just cant run left it seems...

And i myself never used any voicechat for any content. I did learn most the SB primals blindly, unlike back at HW when it was the first time for me doing such things on release... it was way more fun learing it, improoving, the feeling to finally beat em...

Meanwhile i know many ppl who only get carried and clear stuff only by call outs - be id VC or even cheaper from ACT >_>

[Epidendrum]

Thats what not working here at all. For example the placing of ABCD on seiryu here, some do (clockwise) ABCD like i prefer, some do ACDB or ABDC which is gettin annying if youre done it 30+ times on one way xD

Or the typical do a mechanic clockwhise like on Ozma back then - you would always encounter ppl insisting on doing it counterclockwise. Or on Cid now, the same, some just cant run left it seems...

And i myself never used any voicechat for any content. I did learn most the SB primals blindly, unlike back at HW when it was the first time for me doing such things on release... it was way more fun learing it, improoving, the feeling to finally beat em...

Meanwhile i know many ppl who only get carried and clear stuff only by call outs - be id VC or even cheaper from ACT >_>

I see. Thanks as well for sharing your experiences, Kuroka. I'm starting to see why the regional data centres have such vast differences in culture(in game). I think what happened is that many players in NA/EU are (more?) comfortable with voice chat and have used call outs for quite some time, perhaps from other games. It is an effective tool, but using it too much results in over-reliance. Some players think that they won't be able to play as effectively without it.

While some(not all, some are doing just fine with the macro) JP progression teams do use voicechat, they are a minority in the community. Voice chat isn't a common practice in Gaia, some of us have it but it's more of a "fun to have", or "I want to talk to hear another person's voice" kind of thing. Instead knowledge transmission is by written/typed means in order to reach different platforms (PC/PS4) and people who are unable or unwilling to use external tools/programs, to ensure its effectiveness for everyone it is either fixed or has little room for variation. It reaches everyone who wants the information, but doesn't have the same versatility of voice chat in real time. This leaves the burden on the individual to lookout for things (boss cast bar, markings on the floor, etc.)

With regards to the arsenal, I think I understand a bit more about the reasons behind the mostly negative response in NA/EU. Thank you as well to everyone else who shared, and helped me to understand.

[Xiomara]

I've finally completed all my other Eureka goals, so now I'm about to enter BA for the first time. Epidendrum, can you post the JP macro? I don't want to cause any delays to the JP PUG I join by attempting to translate it in the instance.

[Epidendrum]

I've finally completed all my other Eureka goals, so now I'm about to enter BA for the first time. Epidendrum, can you post the JP macro? I don't want to cause any delays to the JP PUG I join by attempting to translate it in the instance.

Sure, here you go. Hope I don't get banned or suspended for posting this in the English forums though. Added the preamble text before the macro to provide proper context. Be sure to let the party know you're new to all bosses. Not sure how things are in Elemental but I hope you have just a good as a time I have had so far in Gaia. Some parties will give an abridged version, a "drawn" image for a macro - especially for Ozma, which basically shows one of the platforms, Ozma to the front, and highlights dropping meteors to your group's left and rear of platform, while the "ball" is dropped to the right of your platform. The long version with explanation is given below. If you have any doubts, I suggest cross-referencing Elysium's BA guide. The macro below serves as a means to tell all players what to expect from upcoming bosses, as some mechanics require preemptive movement. Players can just scroll up and down their chat window in game to read it, no need to alt-tab or for PS4 players check their mobile/tablet for a guide on the internet.

はじめに
バルデシオンアーセナル野良攻略用の簡易マクロです
MT強攻撃や全体範囲攻撃などのギミックのないものは省いてあります
ギミックの詳細は別の方の詳しい日記や記事を探してみて下さい
このマクロはギミックをある程度理解をした上で使用してください
1ボスの逆サイドの部屋、6部屋に分かれる場所の端から端にはyellやsayが届きません
意思疎通はshoutで行うようにしましょう


開始時警告
/y 段差から降りたら戻れません　アクションやPTメンバーをチェックしてから降りてください<wait.2>
/y PT毎に分かれ、ヒーラーは必ず一人は入れてください<wait.2>
/y 蘇生制限によりレイズ・フェニックスの尾等は使用できません 唯一使用できるサクリファイスも万能ではないので死なないように立ち回ってください<wait.2>
/y サイトラは東西に1人ずつ必要です 段差を降りる前に確認してください

その他マクロ色々
クリックして表示


1ボス「オーウェン＆アルト」
/y 1ボス「オーウェン＆アルト」時間切れ：なし<wait.2>
/y ※※開始時の正面が南、メルダー側が東、ミキサー側が西です 方角に注意してください※※<wait.2>
/y 東メルダー側「オーウェン」：ボスが赤なら青い槍の周囲、青なら赤の槍の周囲が安置<wait.2>
/y 　　【エレメンタルチェンジ】：属性が変わる（MTは特に注意）<wait.2>
/y 　　【白き手】：手の方を見ると手が止まる　線を短くしてDPSチェック<wait.2>
/y 西ミキサー側「アルト」：槍が降ってきたときのAOEが円形なら槍から離れる、ドーナツなら槍に近づく

1ボス後道中
/sh 1ボス後道中<wait.2>
/sh 階段の間の平坦な場所の中央に1箇所、箱の部屋に4箇所、罠があるのでサイトラ持ちが先導してください<wait.2>
/sh サイトラ持ちが通った道を歩いてください<wait.2>
/sh リフレッシュヒーラーがいないタンクはマギアエーテル節約のため、なるべく属性を変えずに進行してください

2ボス「ライディーン」
/y 2ボス「ライディーン」時間切れ：なし<wait.2>
/y 【天逆鉾】：ボス中心円形範囲<wait.2>
/y 【旋・斬鉄剣】：ドーナツ型範囲<wait.2>
/y ボスが消えたら真ん中→AOEを中央に捨てて突進を避ける(剣じゃない側へ)<wait.2>
/y 【雷槍】：外周捨て→DPSチェック<wait.2>
/y 【襲雷】：エクサフレア<wait.2>
/y 【戦死撃】：ボス中心範囲<wait.2>
/y 【渦雷】：強範囲攻撃

2ボス後道中その1(ボス撃破後)
/y 2ボス後道中その1(ボス撃破後)<wait.2>
/y 雑魚大量部屋に1箇所、6部屋のうち奥2個は罠2箇所確定です 罠、転移装置を探してください<wait.2>
/y 詠唱は睡眠で止められます 白黒は迅速魔を使って入れましょう

2ボス後道中その2(6部屋散開)
/sh 2ボス後道中その2(6部屋散開)<wait.2>
/sh ここからはyellが届かないのでシャウトで意思疎通してください<wait.2>
/sh 部屋をマップ基準で<wait.2>
/sh A　B　C<wait.2>
/sh D　E　F<wait.2>
/sh とします　6パーティーにタンク1ヒラ1必須です

外部FATE「アーセナル調査支援」
/sh 外部FATE「アーセナル調査支援」<wait.2>
/sh ロゴスアクション【フェイント】【ディスペル】が必須です<wait.2>
/sh 【ショックスパイク】物理攻撃を反射→ディスペルで解除<wait.2>
/sh 【マイティストライク】クリティカルアップ→ディスペルで解除<wait.2>
/sh 【連続魔】2パターン　※2技目は無詠唱 <wait.2>
/sh 　①トルネドII→エアロガIV：足元に行ってから、離れる <wait.2>
/sh 　②エアロガIV→トルネドII：離れてから、足元に行く <wait.2>
/sh 　（トルネド：ドーナツ範囲　エアロガ：ボス中心円形範囲）

3ボス「アブソリュートヴァーチュー」
/y 3ボス「アブソリュートヴァーチュー」時間切れ：7分30秒<wait.2>
/y 【変異】：ボスの頭と腕の色が変化 白なら白強化 黒なら黒強化<wait.2>
/y 【極性波動】：円形範囲攻撃　※強化された色が拡大する※<wait.2>
/y 【インパクトストリーム】：フィールド2分割攻撃 強化されてない方に入る<wait.2>
/y 【エーテル乱流】：線で玉とつながる 黒玉なら白円 白玉なら黒円に入る（スプリント推奨、処理できない場合は外周で爆発させる）<wait.2>
/y 【コールワイバーン】：雷属性の雑魚が２匹湧く DPSチェック

4ボス「プロトオズマ」
/y 4ボス「プロトオズマ」時間切れ10分30秒<wait.2>
/y 星型：離れる　（円形範囲）　　MT以外に頭割りAA<wait.2>
/y 四角：近づく　（ドーナツ範囲）MTに直線範囲AA 青玉湧き<wait.2>
/y 三角：円通路　（直線攻撃）　　MT以外にペインAA<wait.2>
/y まる：青い円　（ブラックホール）MTに強AA<wait.2>
/y 【ブラックホール】：6箇所の青い円に乗っていないと拠点エーテライトに戻される<wait.2>
/y 【シューティングスター】：青い円の中心から全方位ノックバック（堅実等有効）<wait.2>
/y 【加速度爆弾】：移動・行動すると範囲爆発する爆弾<wait.2>
/y 【メテオインパクト】：対象円形範囲攻撃→距離減衰攻撃→雑魚湧き<wait.2>
/y 【ホーリー】：中央ボスからのノックバック攻撃<wait.2>
/y 【青玉】：円通路に青玉が出現→時計回りに移動 触ると爆発して範囲ダメージ<wait.2>
/y 【メテオ】：頭割り攻撃→魔法防御低下デバフ(青玉を耐えられなくなる)

/y 散開図・注意点（各PTマーカー配置をお願いします）<wait.2>
/y 　　D（フィールド奥）<wait.2>
/y C　　　１<wait.2>
/y B　　　２<wait.2>
/y 　　A（降りた所）<wait.2>
/y 【開始位置、集合場所】：AB→A CD→C 12→1 MTは右角、他全員は左角<wait.2>
/y 【ブラックホール】：各PTのマーカーへ移動<wait.2>
/y 【加速度爆弾】：移動、行動禁止(AAも禁止)<wait.2>
/y 【メテオインパクト】：「開始位置の後ろ側」と「時計回りに移動したマーカー」の2箇所に捨てる<wait.2>
/y 【雑魚取り】：各PTタンク全員でタゲを取る→四角いフィールドに持っていく(AB、CD、12のグループにいる雑魚を釣る)<wait.2>
/y 【青玉】：MTが取る(STは補助に入る心構えをする)、他のPTは左角にしっかり集まる<wait.2>
/y 【メテオ】：MT以外で頭割り(念のためSTも受けない方が良い)<wait.2>
/y AC1はMT必須、STは保険でいた方がいいです 出来るだけタンク2ヒラ2がいるフルPTで担当してください<wait.2>
/y 各PTリーダーはロール構成と、どこのマーカーに行くかをyellしてください

[Kuroka]

Im glad i could give you insight, but ofc thats only what i experienced and other might know it differently....

But holy mother crystal that macro - i saw ppl post smg similar for the support fate and ppl were annoyed and called it spam or jsut were too lazy to read at all... xD



I wanna ask, do you encounter ppl with the statless Eureka weapon too? in dutys and BA? Lately ive run into many using a 385-405 without any substats with is... annyoing >_>

Instead knowledge transmission is by written/typed means in order to reach different platforms (PC/PS4) and people who are unable or unwilling to use external tools/programs, to ensure its effectiveness for everyone it is either fixed or has little room for variation. It reaches everyone who wants the information, but doesn't have the same versatility of voice chat in real time. This leaves the burden on the individual to lookout for things (boss cast bar, markings on the floor, etc.)

Written Guides kinda died off anyways, just as macros... i think last time i saw some on... omg Nidhogg? xD
Mostly its video, which i rly hate tbh.... i just cant learn from that.... *sigh*

I recall a friend being only able to clear suzaku and byakko by gettin callouts on voice, while he barely ever managed without it, as he learned the fight, but not as in why he does what but only to repeat from memory... that is smt i suppose makes stuff so hard, many just blindly repeat instead of knowing why, so when things went downhill everyone panics and dies...

And back then on Sophia ex (i feel old now XD) i watched an former fc members stream and could hear how he used ACT callouts + his own with is just... i dont feel its evil or wrong but jsut... meh i would not wanna play like that.

[Xellos2099]

The Discords were established the first day it was out, when the hard core eureka players reached max level and decided to try and Prog through BA, and then those discords were opened up to the public or new discords were created to imitate that structure as the next wave of players hit 60. They were established to imitate the progression groups success, not necessarily because of lack of interest in doing BA from PUGs (most of this happened so quickly that the majority of the player base was not 60 yet anyways).

After the first few days of Eureka the common wisdom was "This is impossible to do without a premade" and so PUG groups rarely formed. I'm not saying if this is a bad or a good thing, but there was never really any period for PUG strategies to develop or be seriously done before the Discords ballooned in size as this all happened very quickly after the release of the content.

It is also a fact even if pug enter with more than 2 pt, it is extremely like they will wipe. I was trying to do at least Art/Owain fragment run one time when there was no discord run around and a group of random pug decided to enter and we enter and we got a little more than 16 people which is enough for that purpose. I went to owain side with an experienced tank and healer and wer through the add slow but no problem but then we realize the other side wipe to add.

[Tsumdere]

On Gaia, you can throw even 144 people together. As long as there is an established JP macro, it can be done. No need for any voice chat or grouping beforehand.

As for not being able to find PUGs now, as I said in my original post thats mostly due to the fact that pool of people who want to do the content but don't want to join a Discord for their personal reasons is too small to sustain a large PUG effort, in addition to the general attitude to BA being that it requires a premade to make any progress.

I think the biggest problem is that NA and EU have a much, much smaller Eureka pool to pick from. 18.6% of JP players had cleared Pyros but only 5.8% of NA has cleared. That's a dramatic decrease in the available players to pick from.



JP has about 41,000 people running around Eureka from while NA has about 15,000, give or take people who just aren't interested or . Something else to remember is that people in NA and EU just... don't do content the same way JP players do. It's a well known fact that more JP players will try everything the game has to offer while less of NA does. The Aether BA discord has only around 2,200 members. While this isn't everyone who wants to do BA on Aether, I would wager it is most of them. That's only about 15% of the original 5.8% of players that cleared through Pyros.

Not to mention that the overall skill level of NA and EU is much lower than JP. Most people can barely coordinate in Orbonne, much less Baldesion. Less than average players more than likely do need help in BA with callouts, which is why Discord may be preferable for them.

[Epidendrum]

Im glad i could give you insight, but ofc thats only what i experienced and other might know it differently....

But holy mother crystal that macro - i saw ppl post smg similar for the support fate and ppl were annoyed and called it spam or jsut were too lazy to read at all... xD

I wanna ask, do you encounter ppl with the statless Eureka weapon too? in dutys and BA? Lately ive run into many using a 385-405 without any substats with is... annyoing >_>

Written Guides kinda died off anyways, just as macros... i think last time i saw some on... omg Nidhogg? xD
Mostly its video, which i rly hate tbh.... i just cant learn from that.... *sigh*

I recall a friend being only able to clear suzaku and byakko by gettin callouts on voice, while he barely ever managed without it, as he learned the fight, but not as in why he does what but only to repeat from memory... that is smt i suppose makes stuff so hard, many just blindly repeat instead of knowing why, so when things went downhill everyone panics and dies...

And back then on Sophia ex (i feel old now XD) i watched an former fc members stream and could hear how he used ACT callouts + his own with is just... i dont feel its evil or wrong but jsut... meh i would not wanna play like that.

Well, the thing about that macro is that it's for the entire arsenal. The macro provider for that instance will trigger the appropriate section of the macro when coming up to a specific boss or part of the arsenal where there are things to note, e.g. traps, how to do the rooms, etc. The line breaks in the above macro demarcate the different sections. As for reading, if you ever have the chance to take a bus or train in Japan, just look around during the long rides. You'll see folks, young and old pull out books, not just manga but novels, non-fiction books on astronomy, marine life, etc., paperbacks mostly. Not ebooks or electronic readers, physical books are more common. There's a strong reading and writing culture, people love to read. Reading pages and pages of text is associated with enjoyment - leisure reading. Reading is not associated with something boring or a chore. Writing, I'll elaborate on later.

As for statless weapons on some people, yes we have them; not often but I see one or two occasionally. We have all sorts of folks just like other data centres, though the percentages of each kind will probably vary. However, those players I've seen on Gaia, I understand why they are doing it. These people that I encountered are using the 405 physeos variant, which means although statless it has the massive +348 elemental bonus. As for annoyance, that's up to you. The groups(FC/LS) I play with are a rather reserved bunch. Since this is a topic on the arsenal, I'll describe what I mean a bit more.

Let's say Ovni has just been brought down. People split up, going for the portals. Some are waiting by the portal, for it to stabilise. Someone comes along, uses a stabiliser and goes in. Now the first person needs to go look for another portal. Is that sniping? No, not by Gaia standards. No portal belongs to any one player, we recognise that. However, if two players don't have a stabiliser, they will try to find their own portals to wait beside. They will move on to find another if they see a player waiting beside one. It's a public instance with portals for a public dungeon that has consistently been cleared by PUGs. Players waiting by the portals are PUGs waiting to hopefully go in. That's why most Gaia parties only form inside the arsenal itself. Preformed parties may not be able to get every member in. Now for the person left outside, how do you think he/she feels? If that player is from Gaia, I would say mildly disappointed. Angry? No. Sad? No. Annoyed? No. Gaia folks are an inquisitive and rather emotionally detached bunch. Let's say this player left outside didn't manage to get another portal. Immediately, he/she shouts that a mutation mob party is forming, and will do two cycles (2 x 30 mobs). Some others will exit, check their retainers and go into anemos/pagos/pyros to spawn nm and chase after every nm that spawns. Look at this reaction, their thought process is this: (1) that's a bit disappointing, I didn't get a portal. (2) hey that's actually clever, that player put in effort to craft the stabiliser, if I had done so, I would have gone into the arsenal already. (3) I'll go use the time to try to craft a stabiliser or two. With luck I might make it back to this instance when they need to support fate done. That's another chance to get in.

That's the thought process of a typical Gaia player, more or less. There is an initial emotional reaction, followed by the quick realisation that crying over spilt milk does not help. It has already happened, take actions to mitigate your current situation. Now, back to your point, statless weapon. Look closer, is the player executing mechanics correctly and using appropriate logos actions? If so, then it isn't a cause for concern. The latter things are probably what matters more.

Your next point about videos, yes here in Gaia we watch guide videos too. They are seen as a tool that complements the macro. Let's say you've seen the video or the macro, then seen the other one. The order doesn't matter so much. Macro helps with quick memory recall, video helps visualisation. Both reinforce each other. Then there's writing. I mentioned they have a strong reading or writing culture. What do Gaia FFXIV players generally write about? Preparation for difficult content, sometimes involves taking that notebook beside their computer table and writing things down with a pen or pencil. They have seen the macro, watched the video on youtube or nico nico video. They write about their own understanding of the macro and video. They watch the video, some one talks to them about it, they remember a little. They see the macro, they have read it with their own eyes. They remember slightly more. Now, they put in the effort to physically write it, in their own words, what they understood. They remember even more of the strategy. So, not having gone into the fight yet, they have taken steps to reinforce their memory. A macro on it's own is a short few lines of text. A video is someone else's voice and gameplay. Both become so much more when you write your own feeling and understanding about it.

That's not where it ends though. I'll use my LS mate as an example. After writing, she notices that there's some similarities with other things she has written before. She flips back and recalls she is bad at handling sudden puddles, memories of moving too late for Susano Ex's raisen kaikyo and a few other things in that fight. She flips forward to her notes on the bosses in the arsenal. Analysing this, she notes that she will have more difficulty on Art and Ozma because she isn't so good at double dodging (move in to dodge one mechanic, then immediately have to move out far enough to dodge the second mechanic). Now, she highlights those mechanics as things she needs to pay special attention to during the fights. She doesn't do savage raids, extreme primals is the most difficult content that she normally does, and now she wants to do arsenal. Then she posts pictures of her notebook on her lodestone or twitter and comments about how hard she thinks it is going to be. Her thoughts and actions represent about half the PUGs I've met on Gaia.

The other half? They have read the macro beforehand, watched a video and will go into the fight and do their best. Hope something sticks in their brain from the macro and video. Things that the macro poster highlighted a bit more, will stick better in their brain. The rest? Depends on the individual player. They are the kind that learn by doing. They try, first two or three attempts turn out to be a disaster, but now they have seen the mechanics and tried to handle them. They grab a small scrap of paper, and scribble down where they messed up and use sticky tape to paste it next to their screen. Writing helps them too, though not in such a detailed manner. They take pictures of some delicious food on their computer table and all the scraps of paper pasted on the side of their monitor, all these goes on lodestone or twitter with comments on how delicious the food is and how it's going to fuel their next attempt at the content.

After a run, both groups ask themselves 3 things: (1) what went well? (2) what didn't go well? (3) what could I have done better? (Notice: "could I have done better", no mention of other players, it's all PUGs, you probably won't meet them again.)

That's how the reading and writing culture of Japan affects some of their gamers, and above descriptions? That's the average PUG player (yes even the non-JP too. When in Rome, do as the Romans do) from Gaia. Not some hardcore raider, and we make mistakes here and there, but we sure love to read and write (For non-JP, if you grew up in the 1970s or early 1980s I guess you might like it more than television)

So Kuroka, since people are kind of similar apart from cultural differences - are the PUGs similar in your data centre?

I heard that in the west, reading is associated more with studying and some see it as a forced thing. So especially for the younger generation, reading isn't particularly enjoyed. Never could confirm that point though.

[Fiorinol]

Not to mention that the overall skill level of NA and EU is much lower than JP. Most people can barely coordinate in Orbonne, much less Baldesion. Less than average players more than likely do need help in BA with callouts, which is why Discord may be preferable for them.

People in NA unironically think that you NEED Discord and that you NEED to sit around for 3-5 hours instance hopping, because people can't dodge chariot/dynamo without voice chat. This isn't even "coordination", it's just players being bad. You need to have 3-4 people talking over each other for callouts, 2-3 people breathing heavily in the mic/eating chips, etc...

The absolute state of North America.