I'm thinking Dark Knight's rework will be more extensive than I initially thought.

[wSnuggles]

I think the issue with something like that, is it then promotes being at low health, which means that it would become meta to rely on shields to keep a low health DRK alive so they get more DPS.

Also, that rework on Living Dead is just turning it into a better Holmgang (Sans the CD difference)

Which is something to be aware of. We have (Also, had before DRK was created) complete immunity to damage from PLD's Hallowed Ground and have (Again, also had before DRK was created) the inability to go below 1hp temporarily from WAR's Holmgang.

If Living Dead was reworked (Which, given how awkward it can be to use compared to the aforementioned skills) it would need to become something unique in comparison, whilst still serving the same overall purpose (Being an infinitely spongy mitigation skill)

Yeah, oh well :C we gotta wait and see, hopefully its something awesome

[Rubytoe]

Living dead should be switched to 10s where all attacks heal you. DRK shouldn’t have to depend on the healer. No other tank does for theirs

You telling me Warrior's holmgang does not require a healer after their hp is at 1?

[Valdima]

Dear mmo devs, can we not rework a class the second i decide to start leveling it?

sincerely, you know who.

[Lyth]

You telling me Warrior's holmgang does not require a healer after their hp is at 1?

I'm going to save us from revisiting this discussion: Link

...

I'm not sure what you mean by "200% mitigation".

I presume that any invuln ability which involved self-healing would have you hit zero before the life-steal effect became active (i.e. HP can't drop below 1 -> Death prevented -> Lifesteal effect allows your HP to start ticking back up). The easiest way to do this is the old Dread Spikes effect. It's not an unreasonable idea.

As an aside, number of tankbusters negated/fight is the single most important factor for an invuln. The single biggest thing that influences this is recast. In particular, when one invuln is less than half the recast of another, you're generally going to get double the number of uses out it.

A second thing that effects this is duration, but this only is an issue if the fight has a tankbuster sequence that you want to invuln which is between 7 to 8 seconds long (an oddly specific requirement).

Whatever happens, I'd like to see a change to invuln recasts so that they're all in excess of five minutes (but less than ten).

[Kabooa]

Whatever happens, I'd like to see a change to invuln recasts so that they're all in excess of five minutes (but less than ten).

I'd prefer we just get rid of them.

[Kalise]

I'm not sure what you mean by "200% mitigation".

Simple:

100% mitigation just prevents all damage. A la, Hallowed Ground.

200% mitigation, not only prevents all damage, but also heals up previously taken damage.

An example would be, this proposed "Turn damage taken into healing" skill would be usable at 1 hp (If timed perfectly) and would not only prevent you taking damage for its duration (A la, Hallowed Ground) but also would be healing you back up to full while doing so.

Even your proposed "Prevents health going below 1 hp > Then heals from damage taken" is essentially combining 2 powerful CD's together (Holmgang + Benediction) in high damage scenarios.

I'd prefer we just get rid of them.

Is probably the best solution. Would be much easier to balance and also would mean that they wouldn't have to keep going crazy on TB damage because "lel immune"

I could maybe see 1 or 2 of them sticking around, with the caveat that they don't work vs Tank Busters. So they're more about situations where people mess up and having a backup to prevent a mistake meaning a tank death. Rather than tools to completely ignore a particular boss mechanic with a single button.

As there are only so many ways you can design "Can't die" and mechanics that rely on Tanks having "Can't die" buttons...

[Phoenicia]

Living Dead already has the effect of "not allowing HP to drop below 1" with a caveat of a healing requirement that knocks off the buff once met. Which is part of few factors that makes LD "bad" in comparison to the other two.

1- Even though it has a longer duration than Holmgang (and effectively Hallowed), the "heal or die" factor causes healers to panic and make them toss their instant heals immediately cutting down to barely 1 second sometimes. (I've had WHMs that Benedict me out of it the second TB hits, occasionally before it even hits and then watch them Cure 2 me to not-death) making LD very annoying to work with.

2- DRK is the tank that has the least (Read: no) burst healing and the biggest heal is locked behind a 2 minute CD and a 15s delay, yet it has a steep healing requirement that it can't help to alleviate in any meaningful way. DRK is the only tank that forces a second CD by using its "immunity".

3- Its CD is longer than it should be for what it does. It should match Holmgang since it does what Holmgang does, but worse. You can consider the 4s longer duration as the trade off for the healing requirement. Not that you ever manage to stay its full duration without dying, nor is it under your control how long you stay in it, refer to point 1.

4- Nothing about the DRK's abilities or lore really makes you feel the "death" theme other than Living Dead, never-mind becoming a zombie. Which feels weird. DRKs just tap into the abyss of their own souls for strength, not defy life and death by being/becoming undead. Living Dead feels disconnected from the rest of its toolkit and is just tact on-top as a stolen idea from the next most famous dark themed tank: WoW's Death Knight who were dead warriors that were raised by the Lich king to serve as his "knights".

I still find it funny that the tank with the biggest self-heal burst is the one that doesn't have any healing requirement on their immunity other than "stay above 0 HP after next attack" while the tank that barely self heals by its limited ability to life steal only when its damage is reduced by a stupid damage penalty has the nastiest healing requirement in MMO history.

Fixing some of those points might automatically fix other ones. i.e. If healing requirement is removed then CD is justified. Just make it so the DRK doesn't die once it expires or give it an active only while in Walking Dead status self-heal that will have 1 use: remove LD.

As there are only so many ways you can design "Can't die" and mechanics that rely on Tanks having "Can't die" buttons...

They can go the route of WoW. Immunity is not an option (enemies ignore immune targets and drop enmity as long as they are immune). Instead, a few tanks have a "cheat death" mechanics that work a lot like Living Dead on tanks that can actually self heal (Death knights, paladins and demon hunters), or give very high up-time or value mitigation tools so the tank in question is never in "need" to cheese/immune periods of damage. Or combination of both (paladins).

As it is, it feels as if Living Dead is not meant to be used at all unless really needed, but the game doesn't give me enough mitigation to actually not ever need it.

From that tangent, Holmgang is also bad if it is meant for emergencies. Since if you ask me what an emergency is on WAR it would be when I have no damage reduction CDs, I am terribly low, and my last resort ended up being to use Holmgang after I used everything (including self heals) so I end up at 1 HP with nothing else to do about it.

So which is it? Are those abilities meant to be used only in absolute emergencies? Leaving Holmgang and LD to be very bad. Or are they meant to be for planned usage to free up raid CDs making Hallowed Ground barely useful, Holmgang too strong, and while LD is shorter than HG and doesn't have Holm's target requirement or very short timing, yet manages to be the worst of the three.

In my opinion, generally, the problem is not only how the immunities themselves are designed, but also how the game is trying to force tanks to use CDs on TBs and other long periods of high auto attack damage. And then we do not have enough CDs for those TBs that we end up incorporating their immunities as ways to deal with said damage bursts. Which in turn puts us in a situation where the tank(s) that have the shortest "I can't die" end up "ignoring" the most TBs and be automagically promoted to "best MT" status.

Healers can literally grief a DRK by dispelling their LD before taking a second big hit, think like O8S where DRK can mitigating Death Embrace and Hypercharge(name?) TBs with 1 LD, only to find the WHM dispelling LD after Embrace and have the DRK die to next hit because DRK didn't use a CD for it.

[Awful]

I hope 5.0 really changes Drk it feels like an utter shell of it's former self and I've sadly put the greatsword away and it's a real shame I loved the class in HW and all the fun that was to be had and now I just prefer playing Warrior because of how seamlessly it can preform. Now all I've gotten is a carpel tunnel spamming class that I hope gets some real love in ShB because it needs it.

Actual picture of Drks when they play Drk:

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "200% mitigation".

100% mitigation reduces damage taken by 100%, to 0% damage taken. 200% reduces damage taken by 20)%, to -100% damage taken, i.e. you heal for the damage you would have taken, which is exactly what was stated.

[Lyth]

That's not necessarily true. FFXI's Dread Spikes had all your opponent's attacks heal you, but you took the damage first and then received some percentage of that damage back as lifesteal after. Lifesteal and %DR are not the same thing, and I would advise against trying to equate the two.