Please no more Eureka!

[Kalise]

I can only assume that the "Enhanced Socialization" is down the the fact that, because literally all Eureka is, is FATE Trains, you're often grouped up with people and many people are basically AFK because there's so many groups there that 60% of the people in the Train can't really do anything before the enemies have been insta-blown up even if they wanted to... So they can stand around and chat while waiting for the NM's to spawn.

While, in other content, such as Atma farm, you had to be constantly moving with the train to the next FATEs because they would be popping at random. Not much time to sit around on your hands and just chat with people while others are busy spawning FATEs for you.

It is curious about how previous Relics are considered bad farms when Eureka is literally just one of the worst parts of the previous relics farms over and over. FATE Train to then be able to FATE Train to then move onto FATE TRAIN. Sure, farming "Old Content" was less fun than doing new stuff... But is that really a big difference when the new stuff gets old pretty fast because you're farming it 100's of times because that's all you have to do?

Like, as far as I can tell, the only major issue with Atma farming was the RNG for getting the drops. Had that system been replaced by Eureka Crystals. What part of the previous Relic farms would be considered bad? The part where for Light Farming you could choose to be boring and spam Tam-Tara? Or you could get groups to run current content/raids for light (Or if you wanted, you could FATE Train still...)? The part where, you played whatever part of the game you enjoyed to earn Tomestones to buy the stuff you need?

I don't get how a multiple stage of activities is somehow worse than just doing the same thing over and over? Other than, yes, initial drop rates on Atma sucked and RNG meant that you could farm for ages and still have no progress. But that's easily fixed, as shown by the fact that the system has changed for Eureka because Crystals instead of Atma pieces...

That said, honestly, I still wish that they'd make Relic weapons have multiple ways of completing each stage. So you don't get stuck on the "FATE Train" stage where you just grind FATEs until your eyes bleed, or have to farm old dungeons for Light because that's the only way to get it. But you have a choice of different activities that you decide to do. That way you could either farm your preferred method (I.e. If you like FATE Trains, you go farm FATEs. If you like Dungeon Spam, you go farm Dungeons. If you like Crafting, you go craft a bunch) or you could just mix it up for variety do a bit of this and a bit of that so you don't get burnt out on grinding the same thing as easily but still work on your Relic.

[Physic]

I can only assume that the "Enhanced Socialization" is down the the fact that, because literally all Eureka is, is FATE Trains, you're often grouped up with people and many people are basically AFK because there's so many groups there that 60% of the people in the Train can't really do anything before the enemies have been insta-blown up even if they wanted to... So they can stand around and chat while waiting for the NM's to spawn.

--edited for char limit--


it up for variety do a bit of this and a bit of that so you don't get burnt out on grinding the same thing as easily but still work on your Relic.

eureka actually designs new fates with more interesting monsters. serkets crazy wild aoe spam, penethesia explosions, teleports, to eye of the storm. louhi's no marker positional fighting.
Then you have logograms which give you new, powerful, role breaking abilities. you can finally be a monk who isnt made of paper, or do 1000% damage by charging yourself, or sacrifice your life, become a dps whm, or a classic pld.

the social aspect comes in because people have shared purpose in eureka, progress
through the content and progress on weapons and gear. Many people are excited when pene pops, with a guaranteed drop for your weapon progress, and the shared experience of danger trying to get there, even for max level players. I am not saying its a super tight brotherhood, but its more connection than the level 50 relic hunter and the level 5 newbie doing the lower la noscea fate.

also, you need to do less fates in eureka than in atma farming, and it actually serves a dual purpose of leveling you up effeciently. I mostly did fates to progress in eureka, and ended up with enough crystals to progress.

and i dont think the relic should be something you get by doing whatever you feel like. i like it tied to new content that bends the ffxiv rules. there are 3 top end weapons that are all in the same class roughly. tomestone weapon, savage weapon, and relic. for what you are talking about, the tomestone weapon fits. the relic previously was just a tomestone weapon with extra old content grinds added to it.

id be all for having more top level weapons created from different content, but i think they want to limit the amount of top level items, to funnel people into content. tomestone for your basic ffxiv participation over time, savage for beating the most difficult content. And relic, which with eureka, is tied to some new off the wall content.

mostly i like the eureka content because it required playing my level 70 class in many different new encounters, with new abilities, and rewarded smart/effecient team work, in different ways than ffxiv usually has done.
I am looking forward to future creative ways play top level charachters, and it will be sad when eureka becomes dead content, logograms are pretty cool.

[Kalise]

eureka actually designs new fates with more interesting monsters. serkets crazy wild aoe spam, penethesia explosions, teleports, to eye of the storm. louhi's no marker positional fighting.

Which are unique to Eureka because?

They could literally design FATEs like that in the open world that you have to do for Relic quests. Much like with the 2 Relic Trials from ARR.

I mean, they already have Raid FATEs that no-one cares about... Give those interesting monsters and mechanics and tie them to Relics if that's all you care about.

Then you have logograms which give you new, powerful, role breaking abilities. you can finally be a monk who isnt made of paper, or do 1000% damage by charging yourself, or sacrifice your life, become a dps whm, or a classic pld.

But... I play my character to play my character.

Which is a sentiment regarding why old Relic FATE farms sucked because you'd sync down and not rely on all your skills (Also, become massively OP because syncing keeps you significantly above content in terms of power levels)

the social aspect comes in because people have shared purpose in eureka, progress
through the content and progress on weapons and gear. Many people are excited when pene pops, with a guaranteed drop for your weapon progress, and the shared experience of danger trying to get there, even for max level players.

How is it any different to doing FATE Trains in literally any other part of the game?

Heck, I experienced this just leveling back in Coerthas Central Highlands. No Relic farming, just groups of people banding together to level 35-40ish. Including actually fighting the Raid FATE there.

It was literally exactly like Eureka.

also, you need to do less fates in eureka than in atma farming, and it actually serves a dual purpose of leveling you up effeciently.

I already addressed the fact that they could have altered the items required for Relic farming from Atma to Crystals to make it have less FATEs farmed.

To say nothing of the drop rates changing, like how current Atma requires a fraction of the FATEs to get the Atma drops for ALL 13 JOBS than it does to even progress 1 weapon through Anemos, let alone getting through Pagos/Hydratos.

Also, "Leveling Up efficiently" if you mean, it isn't absolute garbage like chaining mobs is, sure.

My time spent leveling in Eureka has been mostly from Challenge Logs, despite spending hours farming FATEs throughout the week...

i dont think the relic should be something you get by doing whatever you feel like. i like it tied to new content that bends the ffxiv rules.

But why? Why not have new content that you can opt to do and if you don't like it you can still work on it?

Especially if the "New" content isn't new at all and is just the SAME FATE FARMING that has existed in the game since 2.0?

the relic previously was just a tomestone weapon with extra old content grinds added to it.

Extra old content grinds added to it... You mean like FATE Farming? Oh wait...

id be all for having more top level weapons created from different content, but i think they want to limit the amount of top level items, to funnel people into content. tomestone for your basic ffxiv participation over time, savage for beating the most difficult content. And relic, which with eureka, is tied to some new off the wall content.

Or they can be actually competent and let people work towards the Relic weapon, the one that you work on continuously throughout an expansion, the one that up until SB had a story attached to it that you went through and the one that has the shiniest (Quite literally) and most extravagant design to it?

Why create 3 different weapons (With the Crafted ones being crappy imitations of an end-game weapon especially with the unupgraded versions being better than the higher ilevel exchanged ones because lel overmelding) when you could just have separate ways to work towards the same flashy weapon?

So that people can play the content they like in order to do the massive grind that is associated with the cool looks and (Usually) story that is the Relic weapon.

mostly i like the eureka content because it required playing my level 70 class in many different new encounters

You mean like progressing through raids do?

and rewarded smart/effecient team work, in different ways than ffxiv usually has done.

What? You're rewarded in Eureka for FATE Trains, just like you have been since 2.0.

Where you don't actually have to do much, just be in a party and exist at a FATE and passively get gold tier rewards.

Then you get rewarded for farming light. Much like with the previous 2 relics. Only this time you can't get light from multiple sources of gameplay (Like Raids, Dungeons and high level FATEs)... That's not new and different, that's just the same.

I am looking forward to future creative ways play top level charachters, and it will be sad when eureka becomes dead content, logograms are pretty cool.

I too am looking forward to creative ways to play max level characters. I hope it doesn't take the form of just FATE Trains ad infinitum.

Since, while I like the occasional train, I also like you know, actually feeling like I have an impact on the content I'm doing. Where I'm not just hitting for 0.01% of some NM's max health per hit alongside 100 other people. Where I'm not just rushing to group up enemies so that they can get AoE'd down by the classes that have good AoE damage.

Where I can actually play my main class, in my main role (Warrior, as a Tank) without it just being relegated to being a subpar DPS because there's 30 other Tanks and only 1 target that actually needs tanking.

I much prefer more focused alternate content. As I find it more engaging and fun, even if it's more outside the box, such as PotD rather than strictly Dungeon/Raids.

[Physic]

Which are unique to Eureka because?

They could literally design FATEs like that in the open world that you have to do for Relic quests. Much like with the 2 Relic Trials from ARR.

--edited for char--
.

1) fates are not unique to eureka, but eureka gathers all the people who need to do these fates as a starting point, open world fates in ffxiv overworld are not post max level content, 60% of the players in northern thanalan are not there for chimera, and a max level charachter gets little benefit doing this fate.

2)current atma farm does not require less fates for all 13 jobs, its not guaranteed per fate, and each weapon needs 13 or 12 stones thats 26 fates assuming 50% drop rate. per weapon, the anemos step requires 357 anemos crystals on average. thats going to be overall a similar level of fates. the difference is, this is the starting point, instead of the nerfed grind 3 years after the weapon is released, and the anemos weapon takes you from 290-355 for 25-30 fates, whereas the original relic takes you from 80 to 90 for that grind. and lets be honest it was way more fates. atma farm is not even close to 1/3 of the relic process.

3) new boss fates with new monsters and new mechanics are not old content. a new dungeon is not old content just because it is a dungeon.

4) except at this point they already have many flashy weapons, any new relic will no longer be the flashiest weapon, they got 2 flashy zodiac 3-4 flashy anima, 3 versions of flashy eureka, flashy primal weapons, flashy potd weapons. Im not even using the final eureka weapon's model. If you want to do regular stormblood content for a weapon, tomestone fills that, if you want to get a flashy weapon, its like a 1/12 chance whatever new relic is your flavour of flashy, only to get lower as more weapons are released.

5) progressing raids is one flavor of content that is already well rewarded, why would they put even more rewards of the same type in the same content? doing regular dungeon content is already the meat and potatoes. It makes sense to reward something different equally, to get people to whom the other two methods do not appeal.

6) light is obtained also through effeciently killing specific monsters, as well as fates, if pretty ineffecient to do nothing while waiting for fates for light. Basically by mastering the knowledge and abilities of eureka, you see greater gains. strategy and planning, and knowledge of the monsters and area is a key part of the design of eureka, and thus timely relic completion. And fighting one dragon is more entertaining than spamming tam tara solo to me.


the fates in eureka require partipation, unless your party carries you.

aoe spam killing is not effecient for anything in eureka, other than spawning low level fates, its extremely common in dungeons though. Most of my eureka progress was with 2-4 players, so my personal contribution was always important to progress.

[Kalise]

1) fates are not unique to eureka, but eureka gathers all the people who need to do these fates as a starting point, open world fates in ffxiv overworld are not post max level content, 60% of the players in northern thanalan are not there for chimera, and a max level charachter gets little benefit doing this fate.

So would any overworld content that was required to do Relics.

Literally, we have The Lochs which is a level 69-70 zone where ALL FATEs there are level 69.

I honestly don't see how this is drastically different to Eureka and its content that is based around level 70's... That also have secondary Elemental Levels causing a rift between players... Magia board being restricted behind Elemental Levels in Anemos... And Lologram obtaining...

2)current atma farm does not require less fates for all 13 jobs, its not guaranteed per fate, and each weapon needs 13 or 12 stones thats 26 fates assuming 50% drop rate.

It does.

Source: I ground out all 13 jobs worth of Atma in a few hours.

It took me several days of grinding FATEs in Anemos to get my single Axe done. Especially when the lower elemental level FATEs give pathetic rewards and FATEs like Pizzazuzu take excessive amounts of time to make spawn and then complete.

3) new boss fates with new monsters and new mechanics are not old content. a new dungeon is not old content just because it is a dungeon.

So you're saying that Eureka isn't necessary for new content.

Isn't that undermining the argument that Eureka is good if it can be recreated without creating a whole new zone to put into the game?

4) except at this point they already have many flashy weapons, any new relic will no longer be the flashiest weapon, they got 2 flashy zodiac 3-4 flashy anima, 3 versions of flashy eureka, flashy primal weapons, flashy potd weapons. Im not even using the final eureka weapon's model. If you want to do regular stormblood content for a weapon, tomestone fills that, if you want to get a flashy weapon, its like a 1/12 chance whatever new relic is your flavour of flashy, only to get lower as more weapons are released.

This again undermines your argument.

Why bother even having Eureka if the main content tied to it isn't unique. Heck, you're not even using the primary reward for the content.

Also, me having flashy weapons doesn't mean I don't want to get the new flashy weapon that's part of the new expansion.

I collect Relic weapons, I'm in the process of collecting all the Zodiac and Anima weapons and if Eureka wasn't such butt content that to do efficiently requires FATE Trains, I'd be collecting all the Eureka weapons too.

Tomestone weapons to not fill this same role. Spending a couple of weeks Tomestone caps on a weapon that's boring and not flashy is not the same as undertaking an epic grind to build a flashy cool weapon alongside the story.

5) progressing raids is one flavor of content that is already well rewarded, why would they put even more rewards of the same type in the same content? doing regular dungeon content is already the meat and potatoes. It makes sense to reward something different equally, to get people to whom the other two methods do not appeal.

Because the reward in question is one that is used by all kinds of players. As such, it should be implemented so that all kinds of players can work on it.

The primary reason to go to Eureka is to earn the Relic weapon. The secondary reasons are other items such as hairstyles and mounts. The tertiary reason is the story for the place.

This is not good design. Since it's tying stuff that should be for everyone, provided they put the effort into grinding it, behind specific content that's trying to aim for other players.

6) light is obtained also through effeciently killing specific monsters, as well as fates, if pretty ineffecient to do nothing while waiting for fates for light. Basically by mastering the knowledge and abilities of eureka, you see greater gains. strategy and planning, and knowledge of the monsters and area is a key part of the design of eureka, and thus timely relic completion. And fighting one dragon is more entertaining than spamming tam tara solo to me.

None of this seems unique.

Also, you didn't need to spam Tam-Tara solo. You could have done Alexander, Coils of Bahamut, EX Trials etc. To get Light.

Just because you CHOSE to farm Tam-Tara solo, didn't mean you HAD to. Again, previous Relics had CHOICE in much of their grinds. You could do any Tomestone earning content to get the currency to buy items. You could do FATEs, Dungeons or Raids (Both soloing old ones like Tam-Tara, or grouping for current content ones) to earn Light. Literally, you could FATE Train just like Eureka to earn your light.

the fates in eureka require partipation, unless your party carries you.

Which they often will because it's often part of a FATE Train.

aoe spam killing is not effecient for anything in eureka, other than spawning low level fates, its extremely common in dungeons though. Most of my eureka progress was with 2-4 players, so my personal contribution was always important to progress.

Meanwhile, in order to maximize efficiency, you FATE Train. Which waters down personal contribution.

Again, here you chose to do 2-4 player content instead of taking the most efficient path so you had more fun. Meanwhile, you previously chose to take the most efficient route with previous Relics and went Tam-Tara farming and had less fun.

This is nothing new.

Also, I'm not against Eureka as a whole. If it can be created simultaneously to other content without diverting resources away from things I like to do, then it literally has no impact on me.

Unless they tie the expansions Relic behind it. Which is an idea that can sod off.

If you just want to earn something at the end of your Eureka content, why not put something else there? Maybe something that would actually do something in Eureka (Since given the item level sync, upgrading your Relic does nothing)

Heck, if you're doing Eureka for the content why not give Eureka a boring old 390 item level weapon at the end? I mean, "its like a 1/12 chance whatever new relic is your flavour of flashy, only to get lower as more weapons are released" right?

[Physic]

So would any overworld content that was required to do Relics.

Literally, we have The Lochs which is a level 69-70 zone where ALL FATEs there are level 69.



Heck, if you're doing Eureka for the content why not give Eureka a boring old 390 item level weapon at the end? I mean, "its like a 1/12 chance whatever new relic is your flavour of flashy, only to get lower as more weapons are released" right?

most of your feedback is missing something here.



how you put together something makes a big difference in its implementation. Just because you have some of the same pieces, doesnt mean the end product is the same.


the big difference with the design of eureka, is its a self contained zone where all the players have the same purpose. It crosses server and is seperate from the regular world so it has overall different rules, which changes the way the content plays out. The rules that they changed enhance the experience they are trying to create.


1)Everyone in the zone has only a few possible goals. In a regular 69 area the fates serve a different purpose. They are all part of the background and fluff of the world, the open world is mostly the places in which you do main story and side quests, or gather materials.


I have not seen a dead fate in 2-3 weeks in my time in eureka. They always get done by many people. The only time the fates dont get done is when the instance stops adding new players. This is important because most of the fates are designed such that they are hard to complete solo. The only way you can design a zone with tons of boss fates, is if the majority of people on the map are going to participate in that fate if it pops, that is not the case in the overworld.

3)monster balancing in general is different in eureka. In the overworld, most monsters are designed to be fodder, its pretty unlikely for anything to kill you unless you are extremely underlevel, and you can probably escape at all times. Eureka is designed so that most things that aggro you, are some level of threat to you, escaping enemies is more difficult, and more dangerous. The focus is more on fighting stronger monsters, than blowing up weak enemies. you will get more experience killing one monster 4 levels higher as a group, than killing 5 weaker monsters in aoe death spam.


if my 2-4 players was the inefficent way, then no one has a right to complain, i completed the entire weapon and eureka in 2 weeks, and thats when i knew nothing.





why not give it an i390 item, its mostly because i390 is given too easily for it to be a worthwhile goal for something that takes that long. I am not one of the people who says, if content is good you should do it for no gains, thats not realistic, and doesnt motivate players. its also not the way MMOs generally work.

[Kalise]

the big difference with the design of eureka, is its a self contained zone where all the players have the same purpose. It crosses server and is seperate from the regular world so it has overall different rules, which changes the way the content plays out. The rules that they changed enhance the experience they are trying to create.

This is nothing unique.

They could have had a special zone in the overworld that has the same effect. I mean, they're working on adding more cross-server support in ShB. Having a cross-server zone would have been a perfect idea to lead up to that.

1)Everyone in the zone has only a few possible goals. In a regular 69 area the fates serve a different purpose. They are all part of the background and fluff of the world, the open world is mostly the places in which you do main story and side quests, or gather materials.

So far.

There's literally nothing stopping them from adding in a max level zone specifically designed for max level players to do max level content. Outside them being less able to stick arbitrary ilevel syncs onto the content to bloat out the content so that it's more annoying to do alone or in smaller groups.

I have not seen a dead fate in 2-3 weeks in my time in eureka. They always get done by many people. The only time the fates dont get done is when the instance stops adding new players. This is important because most of the fates are designed such that they are hard to complete solo. The only way you can design a zone with tons of boss fates, is if the majority of people on the map are going to participate in that fate if it pops, that is not the case in the overworld.

Shocking that when overworld is not designed with any overarching reward for playing in, that no-one is found playing in it.

Again, if Eureka rewards were tied behind overworld content. People would be playing the overworld content just the same. Farming FATEs just as they do in Eureka.

3)monster balancing in general is different in eureka. In the overworld, most monsters are designed to be fodder, its pretty unlikely for anything to kill you unless you are extremely underlevel, and you can probably escape at all times. Eureka is designed so that most things that aggro you, are some level of threat to you, escaping enemies is more difficult, and more dangerous. The focus is more on fighting stronger monsters, than blowing up weak enemies. you will get more experience killing one monster 4 levels higher as a group, than killing 5 weaker monsters in aoe death spam.

Again, nothing that couldn't be adjusted in a specific open world zone.

Also, I beg to differ about "More experience killing one monster 4 levels higher than killing 5 weaker monsters". My experience is that killing monsters at your level, thus will be the minimum level required for Chain bonus > killing monsters higher level.

Experience gains from increasing levels doesn't really scale very well with how much longer they take to kill.

To say nothing about how party level differences can also reduce experience gains, which Eureka has a lot of because even though everyone is level 70, they decided to put in an independent leveling system because...?

Like, the only reason I can see for independent leveling system is to punish people when they die a lot more. As well as make it harder for people to participate in content when they first enter a particular zone. Even more so when even more arbitrary gates are put into place like being unable to use a mount or attune to aetherytes before specific levels.

why not give it an i390 item, its mostly because i390 is given too easily for it to be a worthwhile goal for something that takes that long. I am not one of the people who says, if content is good you should do it for no gains, thats not realistic, and doesnt motivate players. its also not the way MMOs generally work.

What you're saying is that the content just isn't good enough or actually liked enough to stand on its own merits.

That it needs such a highly valued reward to actually entice people into playing it.

Since, the argument you're making is that Eureka is supposed to be content for those that don't like Raids/Dungeons to be able to do something. Surely, the fact that Eureka is a way to get full ilevel 390 gear, just like Raids/Dungeons would mean that all these people who don't like Raids/Dungeons can have end-game content where they can farm up gear just like Raiders/Dungeoneers? (You know, outside the fact that Eureka throws TONS of Tomestones at you for doing FATEs so you can easily buy Tomestone gear...)

Or is it just the fact that Eureka makes gear worthless because ilevel syncs that would make people not care to grind it out for a set of plain old ilevel 390 gear?

So they require specifically Relic weapons to make the content appealing enough to stick with? If that's the case then it means Eureka just isn't worthwhile content to make if people don't like to do it.