In regards to the "Warrior of Darkness"; how far is too far?

[Vidu]

I think the msq mentioned something about only imperials being int he castle, but I could be wrong about that...I'd need to double check that part of the msq to be sure.

...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

[Daralii]

I sure hope you're right. However, I could see us going down the antihero path. Imagine if we had to summon a primal to "cause problems" for the Garlean's and other threats.

Remember all the talk of Titania's summoning and nature being a big deal? That, the idea of talking a beast tribe into a summoning, and her resemblance to Alisaie are making me speculate... things.

I keep thinking about how ShB’s poster job is DRK, and I think back to the original 30-50 DRK storyline. And I wonder if we’ll see some aspects of that in the way our character behaves.

Perhaps more selfish decisions rather than selfless. Perhaps more resistance at always being used as a sort of pawn for whomever wants to make use of us. Perhaps a desire to return to who we used to be...

Or I could be completely wrong and they chose DRK simply because “Warrior of Darkness and what job better fits ‘Darkness’ other than DRK’.

I’ve always wanted to see the side of our character that is presented in the DRK quest tho... Not necessarily the English edgelord side but the side from the original JP.

I'm pretty sure they chose DRK because they want to do a reverse Cecil. Title art looks like him, the DRK artifact set looks like him, the Amano art of the WoD protecting a young girl(Minfilia/Rydia)...

[Lauront]

...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

Or monstrosities, as in Castrum Abania.

I keep thinking about how ShB’s poster job is DRK, and I think back to the original 30-50 DRK storyline.

IMO, the direction of the DRK quests at level 70 present a very nice segue into where the story might be headed, since a lot of it involves self-reflection on your deeds, without wanting to give away too much. It could almost have been a MSQ story.

I don't think we'll be doing anything the First's Warriors of Darkness did. They were from a Shard that was going to be returned to the Void (Flood of Light) and Elidibus told them they had to cause a Calamity on the Source to save it. What Elidibus probably "failed" to mention is what may happen to a world that goes through the 'Rejoining' process. While the threat of the Flood is gone, what happens to everyone/thing that lives on that Shard (based on what was said in 4.5, it's implied they cease to exist)? If it wasn't for Urianger, Zodiark would probably be revived and the First, Warriors of Light and Scions present during the fight would have likely perished.

For our characters, it's probably just gonna be fighting/killing as many light-based things as possible so there can be balance. Watch Minfillia end up being the final boss lol

Regarding the First, it's not yet confirmed it's no longer under threat. Given that there is a looming calamity on the Source as well, it may be the case that the excess light Minfillia is absorbing is spreading throughout it rather than just going into Hydaelyn. When you add to this the effect the WoL's actions are having, it could be resulting in an imbalance in both worlds. Elidibus's primary aim is the revival of his god. One can speculate as to the why's and wherefore's of it, but I am beginning to lean towards the notion that the Ascians aren't just doing it for the hell of it and there may be deeper reasons as to why they took on this cause. We'll have to wait until 5.0 to find out more about these beings, which I speculate may, too, have once been WoLs, then WoDs, then what they are now. Hydaelyn herself had also neglected to mention what was going on in the First and I am hoping they reveal why in the future.

[Bright-Flower]

...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

See, I'd love it if there was some moral ambiguity in SB, but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid it. That song had me pretty hyped for the war story, but it felt to me like SE was too afraid to actually have the good guys do anything quesitonable. The main questionable thing to me, dragging the Xaela into the war, was never presented as questionable in the story. They made Zenos a monster to overcompensate for people that wanted to side with Gaius.

The story never really explores any of these things. Sure many of the imperials we kill are probably just conscripts who didn't particularly want to be there, but at the same time, they ARE soldiers in an occupying army that oppresses the local people.

The SB DRK questline tried to make this point, yet the msq doesn't really have any tragic figures that we killed to show off, instead only having Gaius' henchmen (lieutenants in an army trying to subjugate Eorzea), the warriors of darkness (who we didn't kill), the heavens' ward (who had to be stopped), and freaking Ilberd.

[Lauront]

Even Zenos's revival... they ruled out any redemption arc from the outset. Still, he has a lot of fans, so I'm not sure how successful their attempt was.

See, I'd love it if there was some moral ambiguity in SB, but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid it. That song had me pretty hyped for the war story, but it felt to me like SE was too afraid to actually have the good guys do anything quesitonable. The main questionable thing to me, dragging the Xaela into the war, was never presented as questionable in the story. They made Zenos a monster to overcompensate for people that wanted to side with Gaius.

The story never really explores any of these things. Sure many of the imperials we kill are probably just conscripts who didn't particularly want to be there, but at the same time, they ARE soldiers in an occupying army that oppresses the local people.

The SB DRK questline tried to make this point, yet the msq doesn't really have any tragic figures that we killed to show off, instead only having Gaius' henchmen (lieutenants in an army trying to subjugate Eorzea), the warriors of darkness (who we didn't kill), the heavens' ward (who had to be stopped), and freaking Ilberd.

There was Yotsuyu. They amply expanded on her backstory and how it tied into how she was treated as a Doman. But you're right, a lot of this stuff is tied into side-quests, and that was the exception. There's certainly a lot of material that highlights that the average Garlean, whilst misguided/misled, is not necessarily evil (and conversely, that Eorzea/Othard has its own share of wickedness.)

Even in Nidhogg's case, whilst his rage was explained to us, he was so uncompromisingly destructive at the end, that nothing but death could resolve that story arc. Which, in turn, explained Thordan's motivations.

[Bright-Flower]

Even Zenos's revival... they ruled out any redemption arc from the outset. Still, he has a lot of fans, so I'm not sure how successful their attempt was.



There was Yotsuyu. They amply expanded on her backstory and how it tied into how she was treated as a Doman. But you're right, a lot of this stuff is tied into side-quests, and that was the exception. There's certainly a lot of material that highlights that the average Garlean, whilst misguided/misled, is not necessarily evil (and conversely, that Eorzea/Othard has its own share of wickedness.)

Even in Nidhogg's case, whilst his rage was explained to us, he was so uncompromisingly destructive at the end, that nothing but death could resolve that story arc. Which, in turn, explained Thordan's motivations.

Yotsuyu suffered aweful things. But she was also introduced as sadistically forcing peasants to murder eachother for her amusement. Yotsuyu was a huge missed opportunity. They could have used her as an example that maybe Doma wasn't so great before the empire took it, and maybe had her as a villain that believed Doma under the empire's yoke was better off than it would be governing itself, and ultimately making Hien and Doma itself face up to past failings and endeavoring to make a better Doma than they once were once liberated. But ultimately all Yotsuyu's unfortunate backstory contributed was a vain attempt to get me to sympathize with her in 4.2 and 4.3 rather than adding any actual nuance to the story. Even when we talk to the guy that used to pimp her out the story doesn't really explore it and nothing is done with him again.

[Lauront]

Yotsuyu suffered aweful things. But she was also introduced as sadistically forcing peasants to murder eachother for her amusement. Yotsuyu was a huge missed opportunity. They could have used her as an example that maybe Doma wasn't so great before the empire took it, and maybe had her as a villain that believed Doma under the empire's yoke was better off than it would be governing itself, and ultimately making Hien and Doma itself face up to past failings and endeavoring to make a better Doma than they once were once liberated. But ultimately all Yotsuyu's unfortunate backstory contributed was a vain attempt to get me to sympathize with her in 4.2 and 4.3 rather than adding any actual nuance to the story. Even when we talk to the guy that used to pimp her out the story doesn't really explore it and nothing is done with him again.

Mhm, although she still benefited from more of a backstory than most villains do. Idk if it's just to do with the limitations of how much of the story they can convey in an MMO due to their resource limitations. Still, at least there was more of an attempt in her case to bring the motives to the forefront. They sort of did it with Livia, as well, but it was tacked on at the end.

[Theodric]

There's a lot of moral ambiguity tied to the story. It's simply a case of the protagonists never really being held to the same standards as those they clash with. Even in regards to the way in which Eorzeans interact with factions they aren't at war with there's a lot of shady elements to consider.

Hingashi was kind enough to open up Kugane to the outside world for the sake of trade, for instance - yet when the Isle of Val reappeared Eorzean business operatives with direct ties to the Eorzean Alliance saw fit to lay claim to it in order to evade Kugane's tariffs. It's very easy to take that as a direct assault upon Hingashi's livelihood and culture with very little justification for Eorzeans seeking to dominate trade in a region that does not belong to them.

If the Isle of Val had emerged anew off of the coast of Eorzea and a foreign nation sought to lay claim to it I guarantee the Eorzeans would be screeching to the high heavens and seeking to cast them out.

[Bright-Flower]

Hingashi was 'kind enough' to open Kugane to trade? You mean they did it to make money via trade while still keeping filthy Ijin out of their heartland. The way you phrase it makes it sound like they're being altruistic in opening up Kugane but that's not really the case.

Of all the things to accuse the Eorzeans of being shady about going after trying to set up trade on a newly formed island to avoid tariffs is kind of baffling to me. If that happens then Hingashi will just have to be more competitive with their tariffs rather than doing what they want and raking in the gil.

[Lauront]

Trade is all about mutual benefit. The Ijin benefit as much as anyone else from it, and in particular the East Aldernard company. The tariffs can be taken as the costs of maintaining the city's public services and accessing its vibrant network.

Besides, it's a pretty great way for the Eorzeans to breed further contempt from a potential ally that already has little reason to break its neutrality with the Empire but has gone as far as to allow the Prima Vista's members to stay within it.