At the end Ishgard: theocracy and history, which conclude of it? (spoil)

[Iscah]

12 knight of Thordan are the 12 knight of King Arthur which match up with the time where briton is converted to catholicism, and old ritual and faith are chased and forbidden.

This is correct, but probably not for the deep symbolic reason you're ascribing to it.

Primals are generally based on "summons" from past Final Fantasy games, and one of those is... Knights of the Round!

So most likely it's just a case of pairing up that summon with the most appropriate setting, and Ishgard is an obvious choice. So the "king and twelve knights" would have been planned as a story element to set up the finale where we fight the primal Knights of the Round.

The way how monotheism hold power in Ishgard is the same that Catholic did. Catholic forbidden to people to read and learn, kept the ancient knowledge of greek text,(philosophy, science, politic) to avoid any contest of its power. As we know all, rebirth of Europe is based on the rediscover of the ancient Text, thanks to the trade with the Arabian and muslim countries who took this legacy and worked on it. (that why they were in advance on science compared to catholic contries)

This really sounds more like Sharlayan than Ishgard!

Where are we told that the Ishgardians are witholding knowledge from the people? Other than the truth of the war, of course, but there's nothing uniquely Catholic about that - the story could have played out the same with a non-religious king or government keeping the same secrets.

Isghard faith is build on a lie to justify its power and reason of existance, as Catholic did, saying to people they had to suffer their whole life to reach the paradise and forgive the SIn of the past (fruit of knowledge)

Starting peace with dragon, the changing view of Ishgard people on them, by understanding, and refusing the imposition of the monotheism, is like how europe rebirth.

I want to point out an important distinction here, because there are two elements to Ishgardian faith - there's the actual worship of Halone, and there's the lies that have been built up regarding King Thordan, the dragons and the origins of Ishgard.

Archbishop Thordan may genuinely believe in Halone, even though he knows and deliberately upholds the lies that have been built up around that core faith.

Now the lies of the Dragonsong War have been shattered, but Halone Herself hasn't really been implicated much in it. I don't see any reason to believe that the Ishgardians are actually abandoning their faith in Her, even if they're restructuring the way the church functions.



Perhaps if you're not religious yourself, maybe it's easy to look at the story and see "religion is bad, overthrowing it led to Ishgard being a better place" but I don't think it's so simple. Much of Ishgard's religion takes inspiration from the medieval church, but there are hints that it's more complex than just "endless holy war" and corrupt clergy - there's a priest working in the Brume, and he implies there's a more charitable side to the religion as well. Aymeric expresses a more moderate faith in a goddess who "would value the lives of Her followers over the deaths of Her enemies". Lucia is specifically a once-atheist Garlean who has willingly taken up the Halonic faith, and says she will pray for us.

As a (non-Catholic) Christian, it makes me glad to see these representations, and not just the "evil religion" that too often comes up in stories, and JRPGs in particular.

There's a middle ground between "harsh medieval religion" and modern secularism, and - even more so in this story-world where magic happens and gods are more likely to exist - there's no good reason for the Ishgardians to actually lose faith in Halone. They just might not be taught such a militaristic view of what She wants from her followers.


(Edit to add: The current effect on Ishgard is probably closer to the Reformation - essentially a split in the church where one side rejected certain Catholic beliefs because there was no Biblical support for them. Ishgard is a rather more forced version, being required to shift because of real-world revelations rather than a theological dispute, but the path could be seen as similar: a shift from 'Catholic' tradition to 'Protestant' reformation of the religion, but still remaining entirely loyal to their god throughout it.)



All that said, the actual state of religion in FFXIV, and what the writers intend to do with it, is rather hard to guess. As far as the vast majority of the characters are concerned, the Twelve are real, and we know for certain that some gods do exist and influence the world (ie. Hydaelyn and Zodiark). But there have been multiple hints that the Twelve might not really exist, or might as well be primals. It's getting to the point that I'm tired of the writers hinting at it, and really hope they give a definite answer about their nature soon.

Dragon : dragon are the symbol of all ancient faith and ritual which existed in europe befor catholic choose to destroy them, and forbidd them. They are also the root of wisdom that people of europe could have keep, a memory to the tradition, and a way for those people to find back their lost identity.

Perhaps that symbolism is correct, but I've never been aware of it, and I would bet that most other people wouldn't immediately connect "dragons in a fantasy story" with a deep symbolism of pre-Christian Europe.

If I put dragons in my fantasy story, it would be because I happen to like magical flying reptiles and I think they are beautiful creatures. Or someone else might want to put in a fire-breathing monster for their hero to fight. So it's entirely possible that the writers of this story had a similar intention - particularly since they had already introduced dragons (eg. Bahamut and Midgardsormr) as an important element of the story, not connected at all to Ishgard.

It doesn't automatically become allegorical just because you can associate dragons with those things.

[Seraph522]

Dragon : dragon are the symbol of all ancient faith and ritual which existed in europe befor catholic choose to destroy them, and forbidd them. They are also the root of wisdom that people of europe could have keep, a memory to the tradition, and a way for those people to find back their lost identity.

Perhaps that symbolism is correct, but I've never been aware of it, and I would bet that most other people wouldn't immediately connect "dragons in a fantasy story" with a deep symbolism of pre-Christian Europe.

Iscah is correct here. While dragons and serpents (which tend to be relatively connected in older mythologies) do appear often in pre- and non-Christian mythology in Europe, their portrayal is generally ambivalent at best and negative/monstrous at worst. Take the portrayal of Jormungandr/Midgardsormr in Norse Mythology: the serpent is depicted as one of Loki's monstrous spawn, and is associated with the arrival of Ragnarok and the death of the gods, even being responsible for Thor's death. Even in Middle Eastern and Semitic mythologies, serpents and dragons have mixed portrayals: Tiamat in Babylonian mythology is alternatively viewed as a creation goddess or as a symbol of primordial chaos. It's mostly in Asian mythologies, particularly East Asian ones, that dragons have more positive portrayals, and those cultures have traditionally had less communication and intercultural mingling with European cultures. Identifying dragons as "symbols of ancient faith and ritual" for pre-Christian religions in Europe is a bit of a stretch, especially since the names of the dragons portrayed in FFXIV aren't always names of dragons from mythology (Hraesvelgr is a giant that can take the form of an eagle in Norse Mythology, not a dragon).

The portrayal of the Holy See most definitely utilizes Medieval Catholic imagery and aesthetics, but most of the critique seems to be over historical wrongs dealt to another people and the dangers of religious zeal rather than a critique of faith in and of itself. I should also note that Ishgardian faith, as we see it in the game, would not be considered monotheistic but henotheistic - acknowledging the existence of other deities, but choosing to worship only one. We never see the Ishgardians looking down on the worship of the other members of the Twelve, for example; the Holy See is simply devoted primarily to worship of Halone. Personally speaking, as another non-Catholic Christian, I found the entire narrative to be fairly even-handed and nuanced when it comes to its treatment of faith, and I appreciate that.