At the end Ishgard: theocracy and history, which conclude of it? (spoil)

[Kazhim]

Finishing HW here what i can say about Ishgard.

I still believe the design of the kingdom is too much close of historical stuff, in my other topic i explained why.

But the reason of those choice can be something more of a political choice, to send a message, even if for myself i would prefer avoid so obvious reference to real history.

Isghard is a replica of the reign of catholic in western europe, with political and social structur we know from this time: power shared by Churche and Noble.

The time of the war with dragon 1000 year, match with the birth of Catholicism to the time where he is contested ; so around after the end of roman empire 450 , to 1450 1500 where the start of constation birth.

All the word belonging to Catholic building and organisation are in Ishgard, Archibishop is a pop elected in same way that the current pop in Roma.

12 knight of Thordan are the 12 knight of King Arthur which match up with the time where briton is converted to catholicism, and old ritual and faith are chased and forbidden.

The way how monotheism hold power in Ishgard is the same that Catholic did. Catholic forbidden to people to read and learn, kept the ancient knowledge of greek text,(philosophy, science, politic) to avoid any contest of its power. As we know all, rebirth of Europe is based on the rediscover of the ancient Text, thanks to the trade with the Arabian and muslim countries who took this legacy and worked on it. (that why they were in advance on science compared to catholic contries)

Isghard faith is build on a lie to justify its power and reason of existance, as Catholic did, saying to people they had to suffer their whole life to reach the paradise and forgive the SIn of the past (fruit of knowledge)

Fanatism : Ishgard show too way of fanatism, as the first crusade was a kind of bunch of people fanatic who wanted to free the Holy city.

Dragon : dragon are the symbol of all ancient faith and ritual which existed in europe befor catholic choose to destroy them, and forbidd them. They are also the root of wisdom that people of europe could have keep, a memory to the tradition, and a way for those people to find back their lost identity.

[Kazhim]

The end of the story : aftrer all this set up, the writer give a suggestion on a way for people of Ishgard to find peace and live well again, is to root again with dragon, and on that way, showing that even the most close minded society can find the way of freedom and virtue if they manage to rediscover their own past, and rebirth from it.


Starting peace with dragon, the changing view of Ishgard people on them, by understanding, and refusing the imposition of the monotheism, is like how europe rebirth.


Of course Historians says middle time was not only bad stuff, but admit that europe was very late in many thing cause of the monotheism.


Writer probably show how a monotheist close minded society can be a very bad thing for human kind to live on, how its base is weak and bring the country in wrong way for long time.


Catholic did a lot of bad thing in the past, in the name of the "true god" and i think some Japanese saw this, Asian people, and not only, share several god and faith, and which god you pray for is not important for them, but Catholic has been build as a kind of dictatorship to control mind of people forcing them to adore a god, and manipulate them.



Pop of Roma wanted, and stil want, spread the Catholicism for political influence, even if today this is not much, chinese emperor felt this in the past, that why they forbidden catholic priest, and still today in China, Vatican has no right to command or influent chinese catholic.

So the lessons to keep of this story of HW, avoid faith who pretend rule all aspect of your life, politcaly and socialy, faith is something personnal, and there is no "true" god, or "true" faith, the truth is belong to us, to chose what do we want to pray;

So what purpose the author of the story wanted to reach by giving this tale to player?
I see a way to warn us about the melting between faith and politic, a very tought criticism to catholic, (which not include other christian faith existing in the world)

I still wouldnt do in that way, cause too much obviously ref to history, but i salute the idea to speak about this topic in a game.
I liked the whole travel and dungeon, HW feel more like a good old FF than the basic game did.

[Kupocoubo]

I felt like Heavenswards was a parody of French history, with the Revolution and all that stuff, a bit like the manga "the rose of Versailles". I thought it was a bit childish. The French revolution was way more complex.

[DeaconMoore]

Think you're reading too much into it.

[Jaywalker]

Starting peace with dragon, the changing view of Ishgard people on them, by understanding, and refusing the imposition of the monotheism, is like how europe rebirth.


Of course Historians says middle time was not only bad stuff, but admit that europe was very late in many thing cause of the monotheism.


Writer probably show how a monotheist close minded society can be a very bad thing for human kind to live on, how its base is weak and bring the country in wrong way for long time.

This was some very interesting analysis and I think aspects were right on! However, I do disagree a little bit on the part I quoted.

I feel a bit like it was more a cautionary message of not letting ideology, whether religious or otherwise, fully consume your life or your state and that sometimes it's important to reconcile with those with unlike views. The dragons, additionally, within the role of being representative of pre-Christian Europe and its traditions might be something worth remembering and incorporating alongside a monotheistic faith. It's also worth noting that the dragons are shown to be imperfect even beyond Nidhogg's obsession with vengeance in various circumstances. Their capacity for indifference and inability to recognize change are two major issues. One I found particularly interesting though was the repeated struggle to accurately attribute responsibility upon the specific individuals responsible, as opposed to bestowing inherited sin upon an entire nation generations past the evil choices made. When Ysayle parroted this mentality I actually found it pretty disturbing, because it suggested to me she had been brainwashed to the point of no longer understood the limits, perspectives, and generational innocence of mortals. She gets somewhat better, and none of these points are intended to say I dislike Ysayle or the dragons haha. But embracing a purely draconic mindset even outside of Nidhogg would not have been healthy either. Both cultures have shortcomings and both have valid points. It is only through conversation and a willingness to aid each other in moving forward, easing hurts, that they could find peace.

I'd also like to mention, I haven't seen historians argue that monotheism was the cause of the middle (or dark) ages. The values of the Renaissance as a period, also based in monotheism, pushed people to excel. The issue I think was intolerance and ideological purity, which FFXIV also shows can occur in atheism through Garlemald--albeit manifesting a little differently. Intolerance and ideological purity can manifest in any culture, faith, or lack of faith and the game seems pretty good about demonstrating this. To limit the blame to monotheism or Catholicism I think would require ignoring every other instance this tendency is shown... including the enemy Beast tribes, even. It's not the religion itself that is evil but the lack of perspective, inability to communicate or exist peacefully with outsiders, and resistance to the possibility of change or compromise that consistently causes issues. It's important to look at the root issue I think, rather than putting the vilification on any one group. That risks missing the forest for the trees, you know?

Additionally, while Catholics did have persecution of witches/heretics, I do think it might be fair to include not only the phenomenon of Salem Witch Trials fervor (I can't remember which branch of Christianity was tied to that but I feel like it was Protestantism?) and mob mentalities as a whole. I mention this because while FFXIV does reference a lot, often in really cool ways (SEPHIROTH IN THIS GAME ACCURATELY SHOWS DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE TREE OF LIFE IN JUDAISM/KABALLAH AND NAMES INDIVIDUAL POINTS WITHIN THAT PROGRESSION! !!!) they also seem very prone to layering their references or sometimes eschewing accuracy for either a different concept or aesthetic.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I hope this is fun food for thought too! It's been really fun seeing your reactions as you go through the game and I hope you're having a blast with it!

[MistakeNot]

I'd also like to mention, I haven't seen historians argue that monotheism was the cause of the middle (or dark) ages. The value of the Renaissance as a period, also based in monotheism, pushed people to excel.

It has been argued that Christianity was a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire. The most famous proponent of that theory was no one less than Edward Gibbon in his "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". Few current historians put much weight on that theory though.

It is also a myth that the European Middle-ages was "dark". Yes, some knowledge was lost after the fall of the western part of the Roman Empire but not much, and innovation and improvments continued apace during the period.
The Renaissance was mainly a continuation of the Middle-Ages, but with some major societal changes starting to take place in no small part due to the population loss of the Black Plague.

[Jaywalker]

It has been argued that Christianity was a major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire. The most famous proponent of that theory was no one less than Edward Gibbon in his "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". Few current historians put much weight on that theory though.

It is also a myth that the European Middle-ages was "dark". Yes, some knowledge was lost after the fall of the western part of the Roman Empire but not much, and innovation and improvments continued apace during the period.
The Renaissance was mainly a continuation of the Middle-Ages, but with some major societal changes starting to take place in no small part due to the population loss of the Black Plague.

That's an interesting point on Christianity factoring into the fall of Rome. I would totally expect it to play a part (studied Rome and some of the Middle Ages, but I am currently very very very rusty and it was not my main focus) but it sounds like Gibbon is arguing that it was one of the main elements at work? Out of curiosity are most current historians largely of the opinion that Christianity played a role but that the role was less substantial compared to other factors, or that it was basically insignificant in the fall of Rome in light of where it was developmentally and what was going on in the Roman Empire?

Also very true on the Middle Ages as dark. Honestly that was a slip on my end. I know it usually is reference to lost information from Greece and Rome (although IIRC it wasn't across the board? IIRC Aristotle was still pretty big) but for some reason there I basically went dark --> black plague lol.

And yup true on the Renaissance! I was thinking a little of the specific mentality "if God gives you gifts you should use them as well as possible" that I remember hearing about at some point in the past.

Think you're reading too much into it.

You'd be surprised. These games reference things that can get pretty obscure (again I was crazy impressed by how they went over ideas from Kaballah) in very thoughtful ways, often with careful attention to detail. There's also plenty of stuff in Stormblood that does commentary on Japanese Imperialism, Communist Regimes, Nazi Germany, and other subjects in ways that are pretty obvious once you know what to look for. Not to mention references to Journey into the West, the four constellations, and other points that would be readily recognized by most Japanese audiences. FFXIV team is very educated and slipping stuff in is part of the fun.

Also it seems to be a thing in Japan that historical France in particular is considered super exotic and beautiful atm, so it makes sense there would be stuff tying to that and period Catholicism.

[Iscah]

12 knight of Thordan are the 12 knight of King Arthur which match up with the time where briton is converted to catholicism, and old ritual and faith are chased and forbidden.

This is correct, but probably not for the deep symbolic reason you're ascribing to it.

Primals are generally based on "summons" from past Final Fantasy games, and one of those is... Knights of the Round!

So most likely it's just a case of pairing up that summon with the most appropriate setting, and Ishgard is an obvious choice. So the "king and twelve knights" would have been planned as a story element to set up the finale where we fight the primal Knights of the Round.

The way how monotheism hold power in Ishgard is the same that Catholic did. Catholic forbidden to people to read and learn, kept the ancient knowledge of greek text,(philosophy, science, politic) to avoid any contest of its power. As we know all, rebirth of Europe is based on the rediscover of the ancient Text, thanks to the trade with the Arabian and muslim countries who took this legacy and worked on it. (that why they were in advance on science compared to catholic contries)

This really sounds more like Sharlayan than Ishgard!

Where are we told that the Ishgardians are witholding knowledge from the people? Other than the truth of the war, of course, but there's nothing uniquely Catholic about that - the story could have played out the same with a non-religious king or government keeping the same secrets.

Isghard faith is build on a lie to justify its power and reason of existance, as Catholic did, saying to people they had to suffer their whole life to reach the paradise and forgive the SIn of the past (fruit of knowledge)

Starting peace with dragon, the changing view of Ishgard people on them, by understanding, and refusing the imposition of the monotheism, is like how europe rebirth.

I want to point out an important distinction here, because there are two elements to Ishgardian faith - there's the actual worship of Halone, and there's the lies that have been built up regarding King Thordan, the dragons and the origins of Ishgard.

Archbishop Thordan may genuinely believe in Halone, even though he knows and deliberately upholds the lies that have been built up around that core faith.

Now the lies of the Dragonsong War have been shattered, but Halone Herself hasn't really been implicated much in it. I don't see any reason to believe that the Ishgardians are actually abandoning their faith in Her, even if they're restructuring the way the church functions.



Perhaps if you're not religious yourself, maybe it's easy to look at the story and see "religion is bad, overthrowing it led to Ishgard being a better place" but I don't think it's so simple. Much of Ishgard's religion takes inspiration from the medieval church, but there are hints that it's more complex than just "endless holy war" and corrupt clergy - there's a priest working in the Brume, and he implies there's a more charitable side to the religion as well. Aymeric expresses a more moderate faith in a goddess who "would value the lives of Her followers over the deaths of Her enemies". Lucia is specifically a once-atheist Garlean who has willingly taken up the Halonic faith, and says she will pray for us.

As a (non-Catholic) Christian, it makes me glad to see these representations, and not just the "evil religion" that too often comes up in stories, and JRPGs in particular.

There's a middle ground between "harsh medieval religion" and modern secularism, and - even more so in this story-world where magic happens and gods are more likely to exist - there's no good reason for the Ishgardians to actually lose faith in Halone. They just might not be taught such a militaristic view of what She wants from her followers.


(Edit to add: The current effect on Ishgard is probably closer to the Reformation - essentially a split in the church where one side rejected certain Catholic beliefs because there was no Biblical support for them. Ishgard is a rather more forced version, being required to shift because of real-world revelations rather than a theological dispute, but the path could be seen as similar: a shift from 'Catholic' tradition to 'Protestant' reformation of the religion, but still remaining entirely loyal to their god throughout it.)



All that said, the actual state of religion in FFXIV, and what the writers intend to do with it, is rather hard to guess. As far as the vast majority of the characters are concerned, the Twelve are real, and we know for certain that some gods do exist and influence the world (ie. Hydaelyn and Zodiark). But there have been multiple hints that the Twelve might not really exist, or might as well be primals. It's getting to the point that I'm tired of the writers hinting at it, and really hope they give a definite answer about their nature soon.

Dragon : dragon are the symbol of all ancient faith and ritual which existed in europe befor catholic choose to destroy them, and forbidd them. They are also the root of wisdom that people of europe could have keep, a memory to the tradition, and a way for those people to find back their lost identity.

Perhaps that symbolism is correct, but I've never been aware of it, and I would bet that most other people wouldn't immediately connect "dragons in a fantasy story" with a deep symbolism of pre-Christian Europe.

If I put dragons in my fantasy story, it would be because I happen to like magical flying reptiles and I think they are beautiful creatures. Or someone else might want to put in a fire-breathing monster for their hero to fight. So it's entirely possible that the writers of this story had a similar intention - particularly since they had already introduced dragons (eg. Bahamut and Midgardsormr) as an important element of the story, not connected at all to Ishgard.

It doesn't automatically become allegorical just because you can associate dragons with those things.

[Seraph522]

Dragon : dragon are the symbol of all ancient faith and ritual which existed in europe befor catholic choose to destroy them, and forbidd them. They are also the root of wisdom that people of europe could have keep, a memory to the tradition, and a way for those people to find back their lost identity.

Perhaps that symbolism is correct, but I've never been aware of it, and I would bet that most other people wouldn't immediately connect "dragons in a fantasy story" with a deep symbolism of pre-Christian Europe.

Iscah is correct here. While dragons and serpents (which tend to be relatively connected in older mythologies) do appear often in pre- and non-Christian mythology in Europe, their portrayal is generally ambivalent at best and negative/monstrous at worst. Take the portrayal of Jormungandr/Midgardsormr in Norse Mythology: the serpent is depicted as one of Loki's monstrous spawn, and is associated with the arrival of Ragnarok and the death of the gods, even being responsible for Thor's death. Even in Middle Eastern and Semitic mythologies, serpents and dragons have mixed portrayals: Tiamat in Babylonian mythology is alternatively viewed as a creation goddess or as a symbol of primordial chaos. It's mostly in Asian mythologies, particularly East Asian ones, that dragons have more positive portrayals, and those cultures have traditionally had less communication and intercultural mingling with European cultures. Identifying dragons as "symbols of ancient faith and ritual" for pre-Christian religions in Europe is a bit of a stretch, especially since the names of the dragons portrayed in FFXIV aren't always names of dragons from mythology (Hraesvelgr is a giant that can take the form of an eagle in Norse Mythology, not a dragon).

The portrayal of the Holy See most definitely utilizes Medieval Catholic imagery and aesthetics, but most of the critique seems to be over historical wrongs dealt to another people and the dangers of religious zeal rather than a critique of faith in and of itself. I should also note that Ishgardian faith, as we see it in the game, would not be considered monotheistic but henotheistic - acknowledging the existence of other deities, but choosing to worship only one. We never see the Ishgardians looking down on the worship of the other members of the Twelve, for example; the Holy See is simply devoted primarily to worship of Halone. Personally speaking, as another non-Catholic Christian, I found the entire narrative to be fairly even-handed and nuanced when it comes to its treatment of faith, and I appreciate that.

[MistakeNot]

That's an interesting point on Christianity factoring into the fall of Rome. I would totally expect it to play a part (studied Rome and some of the Middle Ages, but I am currently very very very rusty and it was not my main focus) but it sounds like Gibbon is arguing that it was one of the main elements at work? Out of curiosity are most current historians largely of the opinion that Christianity played a role but that the role was less substantial compared to other factors, or that it was basically insignificant in the fall of Rome in light of where it was developmentally and what was going on in the Roman Empire?

Gibbon did argue that, yes. Today I think most historians are of the view that Christianity didn't play any significant role at all in the fall of the Roman Empire. The exact reasons for the fall are still argued about, and will probably never be given a definite answer, but it was many factors combined over the course of a few centuries that contibuted