Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

[Kalise]

Not necessarily. You're thinking in the binary sense of comparison to a healer.

In past FFs, where Red Mages shined was in the areas they could do things other classes couldn't, becoming a subcategory of their own.

Consider this, for instance:

Vercure now heals all allies within 5y of the target. For every ally that receives healing (not overhealing), the potency of your next spell increases by 10%, stacking up to 5 times. Can consume Acceleration to automatically generate 5 stacks.

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

[Kurando]

Also to add to Kalise's post.

The problem is in past FF titles it didn't really matter what a job had available or how they were balanced as it wouldn't effect any other players (except XI). XIV is built around a trinity system and although we do have some hybrid jobs, they will always be intended to fit one of the three roles we have in-game. A RDM healing the party is not doing damage regardless of whether they get a damage buff from it, and if they need to heal so much then the question is what is/are the actual healer(s) doing. Even if something required way more healing than usual, the game would balance it so that the healer(s) are more than capable because there is no guarantee a RDM would be present, nor would they want to make one job a must pick to clear it, all DPS must be viable in the majority of content (players may have job preferences for Savage/Ultimate raids however).

[Archwizard]

But that's still creating non-heal based utility. By way of making a healing skill that is a DPS boost for yourself (But that also competes with healers...)

You still wouldn't want to actually use your heal for actual healing (Especially given it's a GCD for at best, 50% more potency... As opposed to just tossing out a damaging spell for 100% potency) and you'd just be concerned with getting the proc at times when that GCD is not better spent on an actual DPS skill (I.e. During Downtime, you'd hope that healers haven't topped off everyone so you can use the skill for a Dual Cast proc and now also some bonus potency)

It all still comes down to, unless content is balanced around 2x Healer + 1x Red Mage for healing output, your healing skills will be neglected, saved only for non-Healing based utility (I.e. Pre-cast Dual Cast procs, or this suggestion of bonus potency). Unless RDM healing output is high enough to replace a healer in content (Even if only on select encounters) where you will actually care about healing skills doing healing.

That is the binary nature of healing on non-Healing classes. Either content is balanced around their extra healing output, or it's completely useless because actual Healing classes makes up for it.

You need non-Healing based utility in order to be able to balance around. For example, Verraise is not based around healing and thus RDM has a niche utility with it because Dual Cast allows them to more easily use it than Healers whom only have a 60s CD Swiftcast for instant cast times on an otherwise very long cast time ability.

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

[Kalise]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

Furthermore, as long as we're employing our utility in times when it could be useful beyond ourselves, who cares if we're doing it for selfish reasons?

But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

[Wayfinder3]

If rdm is to get any more Healing utility, unless it’s a heal gcd that tops the entire party in one cast. It needs to be an Ogcd to warrant using. The only thing I’d dare give them is a Regen akin to Medica 2 or whispering dawn. Give it a lengthy cooldown between 90 to 180 secs. This way, it doesn’t cost them any dps, while still keeping their roots in WHM viable. Rdm doesn’t need Meta utility to compete for speeds, it just needs to do damage relative to BLM and SMN and excel beyond them in progression. Rdm damage compared to the both of them atm is pretty good. Let’s pray 5.0 doesn’t ruin it

[Wayfinder3]

But the fact remains that in an MMO with Holy Trinity balancing, a DPS will never want, nor need, to use a Healing skill for healing.

Since, again, unless content is designed around RDM being present, healers will be able to handle any and all situations presented to them as they will be balanced to do so.

Cutting into the DPS of a DPS class will always have more impact than cutting into the DPS of a Healing class, because the DPS class will inherently have higher DPS.

Not to mention the current fact where Healers have plenty of oGCD's that they can use as well as the number of shields that are relied upon (Which cannot overheal).

The general balancing of Holy Trinity system just makes it so that anyone who has a healing skill that isn't a healer, simply will not care to use said healing skill for actual healing. This is why RDM currently doesn't really care about Vercure and why PLD doesn't really care about Clemency.

It's a situation where Healers ALREADY have healing in such abundance, that they try to minimize GCD's spent on healing skills so they can push out a bit more of their meagre DPS. Then any time additional healing may be needed, well, that's when people use Tank LB to drastically reduce incoming damage and make healing easier.

As such, it will always come down to a DPS only ever wanting to use a healing skill for utility. Even then, people will just calculate what offers more DPS, the utility provided by the skill or another DPS skill. Since that will be the primary concern of ever DPS class and in lieu of Hybrid role balancing will be the primary concern for RDM.

Of course, there's always the option of making oGCD heals so that they don't compete with DPS GCD's, but then you create a situation where RDM can replace actual Healers due to having the higher DPS even if the other actual Healer has to spend a few more GCD's on healing to make up for a RDM's lower output than a 2nd Healer (Given that DPS deal approximately 2x the DPS than Healers)

It depends on the utility given, Healers are already so strong that any of them could Solo heal if mana allowed it. Both Ultimates have been solo healed at this given point in time. Rdm getting heal utility won’t really add to this anymore unless it’s significant. The problem is, that if rdm has to pay for its healer utility, it’s wasted utility that the job has to pay for in damage and identity. This means the job is in a position where it needs to get this kind of utility with it being basically tax free as dps with healing abilities don’t have much value. The fact that Vercure has less value than Nature’s Minne should tell you how strong healer kits are currently

[Mansion]

Well luckily it was just an example. The point is, our hybridization allows us to accomplish things with Vercure that other healers wouldn't have any reason or ability to -- such as connecting it to damage output, to minimize our personal loss.
Simultaneously, while you emphasize content in which a RDM's healing is relevant, you ignore that the ideal scenario is for the resources the RDM expends on healing to equate or maximize resources saved for the healers to DPS, not overheal.

I think you need to understand that the only hybrid nature in FFXIV's red mage is the use of White and Black magic BUT it's still DPS. As Kalise said, the Trinity will never allow cross-role abilities to a significant level. Like Ninja has agro manipulation tools, yet it's not a tanking job nor will ever be.

If as you said you save resource for a healer to DPS, their DPS is still lower than what you sacrificed with a VerCure / VerMedica or else. Even if it would bring some DPS up for RDM in a way (generating Mana, or any buff), then you need to rework the whole 3 (potentially 4) healer balance: I don't see it happening for obvious practical reasons.

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity.

[Mansion]

My wishlist :

On improved Dualcast : then you need to revise all potencies. Because RDM has high raw potencies on each spell. Sneaking more spells thanks to a 1.8GCD would make it OP...
Otherwise, I guess you ideas are fine. Now the "one VerHoly, one VerFlare then Vermillion Splendor" feels a bit too simple and long. I'd rather see your Splendor back to back to the second Ver-finisher, with a reduced potency.
Guarenteed crit after Redoublement is OP. I'd rather have something to even the gaps in RDM damage imput. Namely, have a way to make Jolt II stronger in the case of no proc once you have used all your proc-fishing tools. Maybe a trait called "Hopelessness" once you have used Swiftcast and Accceleration is on cooldown ;D

[Archwizard]

So let's keep VerCure for emergency/self-sustain, and let's focus on polishing RDM's DPS, utility and identity.

Very well!

Personally I'm not too too concerned about the state of RDM's single-target rotation, as we have plenty of tools to be reactive to and a four-ability combo to finish it is already pretty long in my opinion. The first priority should be increasing the speed at which we access our melee abilities, especially with all of these suggestions to load even more of our DPS into (or gate it behind) our Verfinishers. (Anybody got an average on how long it takes to reach a Verfinisher without Manafication? Because it feels like I only get 2-3 in before it comes back...)

It's a fairly low priority, I think, to give us more instant casts or mobility tools -- Dualcast and Swiftcast are kind of plenty in that regard, and BLM needs mobility tools way more than us.

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

After that, personal survivability -- Vercure's useless if we can't survive the hit in the first place, and we have a rather perilous melee phase that can screw us over with bad luck or bad timing. There's honestly a spectacular variety of ways to execute this that could be perfectly within our identity: modify any protective spell from WHM or the shared Healer actions into a personal cooldown, or some variation of Manaward from BLM to contrast the two utilities we already have from WHM, perhaps some type of fencing-style defense or sword magic...

[Mansion]

The biggest game-changer I find, will be increasing our ability to regenerate MP on demand. I would much rather have Lucid Dreaming as an emergency tool than be forced to live cooldown-to-cooldown with it, especially with our melee combo being taken off TP next expansion. I've seen some suggestions to attach it to the melee combo, but I'm wary of this suggestion since that would mean needing enough MP to get to our melee combo before we can regenerate MP.
We don't need a lot of MP generation, just enough trickling in to kickstart our rotation if we get raised, or at least sustain it if we aren't spam-raising.

Fully with you on this one. RDM being the only caster without a MP regen in its kit / rotation, it leaves us with a dangerous Lucid Dreaming addiction :
Being KO'ed while Lucid is on cooldown,
High threat (because of Tank death or else) and Lucid is on cooldown
Using Lucid to help with raises, effectively patching for this mana loss, but not for your DPS rotation just after that.

I suggested that our un-enchanted melee combo should give us a nice chunk of mana back. I think it would be the easiest way, let's say one third of our mana pool in three actions (remember that they have a lower potency and don't trigger the 1.5 GCD).
So giving one or two full un-enchanted combo after a raise / death would be still a DPS loss, but it would make sure we can resume our DPS safely.